The "Yaqui vision quest" Mind | Forum

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AK Jan 6

Quote from AKIt's just a nod to the more esoterically inclined. The materialistic implications of the original video were correct. Still, it is important, IMO, to understand the more abstract principal at work: from ideal to real, and vice versa.

What good is control of the mind if it is unwilling to act within the world? Or worse! Principles and practices tediously employed in controlling the mind that have no real place or corollary within the real world?

It's one of those template vs instantiation type of things. One can find sublime and arcane truths still at work (and totally applicable) within the shadiest of real-world dealings. 

The "spiritual" it's just the blue-prints - "rituals" just rehearsal for the stage that is the world. How to answer to the "God" that is "Government" and its judgment and law. Michael and his minions: the boys in blue. Satan in chains. The sign of silence, it is a reminder of that which, through repetition, may become useful. OR, where it has become useful, its importance understood. 

It's all about seeing the patterns: from the most pristine and abstract, to their filthiest and visceral manifestations. 

*it's certainly not as if anyone's training for the afterlife.

Quote from Dark EnlightenmentThat whole part of thought, lets call it the "Yaqui vision quest" mind, or the tendency to look at unknowns like guides of specious 'synchronicity' and act on them, I can't do. 

I can only do it if the specious shit I believe is somehow confrontational to something real. But that is more a cold war stand off/poker mentality. But then it's not the belief but what that is used for.

Dreams, things you think you see, the pieces you think fit together all have several other ways of fitting together.  I will never assume intuition trumps ambiguity. I am more likely to choose a path that brings satisfaction by destroying all possibility in protest of the Yaqui vision quest mindset, and anything that could have come from that.

It's sort of the inverse of that. Take, for example, a Tarot Deck of 78 cards. Instead of shuffling them to divine the future or assist in making a decision. Assume that every possible thing that could ever happen within the context of the human experience is represented in one or more of those cards. For example: She's a princess of wands. Or this bar scene is a total 7 of cups (Debauchery), etc: this is a vast over simplification, but you get the gist. Ideally, instead of using a random spread to give reference to a current situation, flip that on its head. Construct the spread that most accurately represents whatever's taking place right now, on the fly.

Essentially, it is - the tree of life, the tarot, etc just a way of categorizing mental and physical phenomena i.e. "the universe" from the most mundane to sublime. A system to make sense of the world whose symbolic interplay may or may not provide some sort of insight into how it'll all play out. 

As to things like Gemetria - the idea that there's a hidden relationship between words in the bible whose numeric values add up together, or taken to a larger extreme: that numeric values that keep cropping up in day to day life have some sort of hiddne meaning. It smacks of apophenia to me, but some people swear by it. Who am I to say? I never found it interesting enough to go look and see.

No doubt, the brain is a pattern making machine. In some instances this can go so far as to trigger functional auditory hallucinations (i.e. hearing voices in your Rice Crispies https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.161.5.923 ), but hey! I wouldn't rule-out that these voices might have something important to say at the very least in regards to what is actually going on within one's psyche just beneath the surface.

My interests lie, not so much in a romantic classical occult revival, but rather taking these things such as skrying, invocation, evocation, ascending the planes, and what have you and attributing them to what are, by now, very well-studied (albeit non-the-less disturbing) psychological phenomona. Deliberately playing with madness. Hopscotching between the lines of genius [read: genii] and insanity. 

Mr. A, a 35-year-old man who had suffered from schizophrenia since his early 20s, was referred for assessment of refractory auditory verbal hallucinations. He was taking quetiapine, having previously been given several other antipsychotics, including clozapine (which was discontinued after a generalized tonic-clonic seizure and neutropenia). No pharmacological treatments had resulted in significant attenuation of his auditory hallucinations (the predominant clinical symptom of his illness).

The most salient hallucinated voice was perceived solely when Mr. A simultaneously heard real engine sounds from motor vehicles. The engine sounds and the voice were perceived as “in parallel.” The “engine voice” spoke to him in the second person, uttering frightening statements such as, “I’ve got hell for you.” The timbre of this voice was mechanistic, like the accompanying engine sounds, and lacked human characteristics, such as gender or accent.

Another hallucinated voice occurred simultaneously with actual speech uttered by television announcers. The semantic content was the same as that of the “engine voice,” but the “television voice” sounded human, exactly like the real voice of the television announcer who was speaking at the same time. For example, the “television voice” was often described as sounding like an adult woman with a northern British accent and “serious” emotional prosody.

A third variant of Mr. A’s functional auditory hallucinations occurred when he played his electric guitar. Single hallucinated words accompanied the playing (and perception) of each individual musical note. These words were in a seemingly random order, without apparent semantic features. Like the “engine voice,” the “guitar voice” lacked human attributes but instead sounded like an electric guitar. For example, if Mr. A played a musical scale, then he would hear hallucinated words whose pitch matched the simultaneously perceived guitar notes. A physical examination, routine blood investigations, and an audiological assessment revealed no abnormalities.

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 6
Dark Enlightenment
Man, I have drifted so far away from that any time someone says anything remotely associated with the spiritual or even the anti-spiritual internal alchemy my eyes gloss over.  If I see "Gematria", "Occult" or anything along non-materialistic lines it encourages me to never read, never grow, ignore what is said, and never acknowlege it until it is free of all its abstraction (my version).  

And some time ago I took all my tarot cards and ripped them into tiny pieces and pissed on them after i could start literally just making whatever cards i want to see come up, but it wasn't that. When every card had about 10 contextual meanings... and you have to "intuit" the correct possibility.  To that point you can take 50 note cards and write random words on it, or just discard that altogether and just go with observation.

 I will pick a skeptics forum next time, seems more like my type of people.  

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 6
AK Jan 6
That's the thing, you don't intuit the card's meaning at all. Just take a given scenario and figure out which card or, if so inclined, 50 random note cards, most aptly describes it in one of its contextual meanings. 

We do this with language, anyway. Observe a thing, attribute a set of arbitrary symbols to it. Except here, it's non-verbal, which is a useful type of vocabulary to have at one's disposal. 'Saves processing time in the real world, and doesn't have the annoying side-effect of waking you up out of an in interesting hypnagogic fugue that thoughts-as-words do. This makes for a more reliable com-link to relay what's actually going on under there to the analytic mind that'll have to make sense of it upon waking. 

If that's what you're into, of course. 

Edit: skeptical of what? It's a schema. It's either useful or it isn't.

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 6
Dark Enlightenment
Reply to edit: The ancient virtue of Pics or GTFO?  A "NO subjective associative leap" zone... unless it's the associative leap I want, but in that case it a device and/or leverage used for my will.
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 6
AK Jan 6
Pics of what, exactly? 

Here's where we might be getting our lines of communication crossed:

There is, without a doubt, a whole slew of crunchynola, patchouli wearing, occultnicks out there repping some sort of just plain weird and goofy stuff. I don't speak for them. They don't speak for me. All it really is, and ever was, is means by which to categorize external and internal phenomena. 

The mind does a whole ton of other stuff aside from just "think" and "analyze", so if you're going to study the mind - and even a way to "study" its studying faculties - you're going to have to come up with some sort of schema that can accommodate the wordless. It's inevitable. Otherwise you end up reducing everything to "chemicals in the brain" - but that doesn't convey any real meaning. It just states the obvious. This whole conversation is just squiggles on a screen. Everything you've experienced is just chemicals in the brain. We know this. It doesn't tell us anything useful. You use schemas to distill phenomena while at the same time preserving it from the folly of deconstructionist absurdity.

And there's a ton of such schemas out there. You can make your own if you want. Or you can abandon schematization entirely. It's your filing cabinet - organize things however you want. Toss all the papers in there haphazardly if that works.

The whole point - with all of this "stuff" is to take the mind, organize it, and discipline it such as to make it something more than just a haphazard junk-drawer floundering haplessly as it is wont to do.

We do this anyway through schematic processing automatically. It's how we make sense of the world - one drawn from past experience. The advantage of using something like, say, the book of Thoth, the tree of life, the tree of wyrd, whatever is that because it encompasses the broad spectrum of known archetypal possibilities within the sum of the human experience - you don't have to rely on just the few limited circumstances you happened to have encountered so far in your short time drawing breath to determine the slot it fits into. It makes for fewer unknown unknowns. They become known unknowns. 

When a novel situation comes up, there's already a slot for that. This avoids a Procrustean bed type of scenario from occurring when confronted with something wholly unexpected that one tries to fit to conform to what was previously encountered. 

Pics of how I choose to organize my mind? 'Not sure I follow, bud. The mind is an instrument: one responsible for, among other things, putting order and meaning to chaos. It makes sense then to peruse ways of ordering and classifying its workings first. 

Sure, you can play guitar without understanding theory, it's not necessary, but damn does it help.

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 6
Dark Enlightenment
To everything. PICS OR GTFO is my guiding principle.  

I think a normal person would assume cordial back and forth equates to friendship, especially online. I know nothing about you (or anyone that exists solely in the fake ass world called social media), it would take an in person interaction to know thing fucking one.

Anecdote: Once some fat ass cunt tried to play "friend" and give me some "totally legit interview" to peddle her bullshit. Bitch acted like a friend and taunted me to my face, assuming I was unaware of the "jape" about. Total disrespect. Musta been used to punks. 

All in all Pics or GTFO applies to EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE I DO NOT TRUST, and it doesn't even have to be negative. I go with face value.  

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 6
AK Jan 6
Lol. Easy there killer. See, this is the Procrustean bed type of scenario I'm talking about. That anecdote doesn't apply here.

We're not friends. I don't know you from Eve, and I'm not peddling anything, either. We're having a conversation regarding what boils down to how one makes sense of the world. We may even run into each other some day, that's not out of the realm of possibility, but not within the scope of this conversation.

For the record, I don't rep A.'.A.'., OTO, or any other TLA. I cannibalize schemas. That's what I do. In the process of doing so, I can speak to most of them at least as well as some of their own authorities. That just comes with the territory - it doesn't actually mean anything.

I for one see a ton of utility in the schematization of "the world". Even if I didn't, there would be no way to avoid schematizing experience anyway. This is just something we do; be it haphazardly, deliberately, or ad-hoc. 

So what I'm saying is that the "value" in these weird occult fancy-schmancy "spheres" and what not is that, for however many people get it all sorts of skew-wise and goofy, is that it provides a schema with which to categorize both internal and external phenomena that is capable of encompassing everything from the most visceral and depraved, to the heights of hesychastic bliss, and everything in between. 

Which is something every schema attempts to do - even a schema that says there's hidden meanings in licence plate numbers.

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 6
Dark Enlightenment

I dont need, care, or want to be philisophical about unknowns. They are just unknowns. Sure I toss it about, but...

It stops after the 5 senses for me. Everything else is a caricature of madness.

So while there can be my own schematic world, how much is solipcism, projection?  And when your assumptions keep being debunked in the natural course of events one will stop trying to refine a faulty schizoaffected ability.

For me its a streamlined approach that holds to what is known.  And does not worry about unknowns or those existential "what is reality" things that kept my 11 year old self awake. 

Above all.

I accept my limitations within the electromagnetic spectrum. I accept my inability to knock over that goat.

I have a former acquaintance that can bend fucking spoons and I can not. I know that kinetic mechanism is staring me in the face, but it eludes me.  She fucking shorted out an induatrial fan, broke a CD, and a entire host of other shit that most people would burn her at the stake for. 

All I can hold for certain is - The extent of our abilities exist solely on terra firma and have a logical, and possibly even technological things.

I just don't know it. So all must remain an inference awaiting testing.

Now let's rewind a bit.

If most people see shit move in their room they immediately think ghost, or something else paranormal. I had the benefit of knowing there is a something like 'throwing kinetic energy' (Men Who Stare At Goats-esque) and remote viewing.... or the ability to look at the shit you are moving in people's rooms...

Any paranormal explanation would never be necessary because my main focus is on why I can't bend the fucking spoon as well.  

This actually proved more useful.


To me it's that all the 'useful' things out there seem too soaked in a divine bloodline of the thoroughly retarded.

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 6
AK Jan 6
A schema is a schema. 

These occultniks - at least the ones who take this stuff seriously and know what they're getting into - they're adapting alternate schemas, and they know this. The ones that don't___ well___ I don't know, I'm sure they get something out of it. G.O.K. what, though. (it's funny how on the internet, you always run into a "ipsissimus'" or some grand pubah. Almost never do you hear from, say a 3=8 or 4=7... people silently putting in the work - which is a shame, because they're often some pretty bright peeps with 0 by way of delusions about what it is that they are doing - they know more than to just parrot, and are just steadily going about their business. Corollary: everyone's a black belt, you rarely hear from the green belts or brown belts, who just diligently buckle-down, don't make a big deal of it, and could probably leave one all sorts of lumped-up if push came to shove)

Preferably the schema one has is one that affords the ability to speak-to and classify the absolutely ineffable things one will encounter when practicing what amounts to paying attention to attention itself or when venturing out into the great unknown that is life itself. It affords a sort of preparedness. One is left less shocked and stupefied when the known unknowns show their faces. This is not a requirement, though. If you're comfortable that everything you will experience fits nicely into the confines of everything you have experienced - or at least that it can be made to do so - I'm not going to lecture you about it. At worst you just end up adding new categories of experience as you become exposed to them. The ad-hoc schema expands organically. 

Regardless, it is a fact that new phenomena will emerge - things that defy categorization. This is bound to come-about with, not just a mind that spends its days studying itself, but one possessed of a will that can throw itself out there in the world (as-in outside of the "ritual chamber" i.e. "mom's basement or wherever"
Can you become someone else? Can you method act? Maintain composure during an interrogation? Fight? etc. 
This all ties back to "will". 

But surely there are more than 5 senses. You can reason, detect irony, humor, and rhythm, right?

I'm not speaking to siddhis or preternatural powers. I don't claim these sorts of things. I don't know how they would work or if even they do. Seems highly unlikely. But I also know that if I did know, I would also keep my mouth shut about it. There's that.

By that same token, though, there's a ton of neat things I can do on, say, a skateboard that just because I can "do" doesn't mean I can explain the physics behind it. If (and that's a huge IF) such things are possible, I wouldn't expect that simply by virtue of being able to accomplish such a feat one would be able to explain how they are able to do it. 

I can't even explain how I walk. Everyone's got that down.

The thing is, though, none of "the occult" really promises any of these things. Sure, it's implied - but it's only real promise is insight into and mastery of one's own psyche. That's it. 

Anyone can, with effort, learn to write code. That alone won't make them a "hacker". For some, becoming a hacker wasn't even the point - they just want to know how this stuff works. 

I am far - very far - from superstitious, but I do know the mind - a focused and disciplined mind - is literally the most powerful force in the known universe even if it can't bend spoons.

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 6
Dark Enlightenment
Of course. I can also build elaborate narratives surrounding all my intuitions, and do, but must hold even my own whatever with a grain of salt.  Several.

There is honestly a category I file as "agnostic by default".

Among these, Any universe theory about pre-inflation and of course my own over-sensitive putting together of shit in a totally narcissistic self-defeating way.  

On point, my juxtaposed theory of the "luck equilibrium" started off in that category as well.

 But the inference of:

How we experience luck is representative of the same ebb and flow that [semantic deleted] regulates all like a swinging pendulum of hoping for sunshine and preparing for rain.

Became more solidified every time I anaylized any dynamic situation from a single entities perspective (even things like societies) and it always ends up looking like the recent numbers at a roulette table. Or some other plot of positive and negative events.

What I was on about with this.


Everything existing like a two slit scatter plot.


Speaking of which, back to the roulette table and the recent numbers tally

Here is a more than common turn of events. 

4 black
23 red
00 green
31 black
33 black
14 red
35 black
17 black
6 red
36 red

26 black
11 red
30 red

The red/black is balanced.
But running heavy is 25-36.

The swings to notice and play are 1/2's (75%+) and 1/3's ( 50%+). The swings have about a 20-30 total number lifespan. And sometimes there aren't any strong enough to exploit. 

You can hit on the inside playing the previous ten numbers but repeaters are like gambling when you are card counting.  

Start using that to place your bets and watch how fast they take notice, especially if others start following you. QED can quickly become a big scary pit boss staring you right in the face. They are well aware of it, or they want to know why you are winning so damn much.  

Devil's wheel indeed. 


Q.E.Dendum for extraordinary claims.

I used a roulette app and pretended it was real. 


9 red
3 red
18 red
14 red
1 red
13 black
5 red
20 black
8 black
30 red

After an initial red burst that quickly leveled off I waited for the emerging swing. 

4 black
18 red
28 black
6 black
34 red
0 green
36 red
23 red
15 black
32 red

And it happened to be the one I used in the example.  20 in to the experiment and the last eight saw a swing.

I started betting 100 on 25-36

1 red  (-100)
35 black (+100)
32 red (+300)
30 red (+500)
6 black (+400)
15 black (+300)
16 red (+200)
33 black (+400)
28 red (+600)
33 black (+800)
20 black (+700)
27 red (+900)
18 red (+800)
25 red (+1000)
13 black (+900)

END. Had I bet red it would have also paid.

I left with 900$ 

I have them all if requested...

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 7
AK Jan 8
Statistically most things can be predicted statistically. This is so. 

But I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about presence. What is happening exactly now. Where one stands with respect to that. Matters of continuity. 

For example:

^this. Aside from looking as goofy as it does creepy, skewers all of the ways one can look at it. 

No one's really interested in predicting the future in any normal sense of the word. It is about "controlling" the future. One can only do this by controlling their impulses. 

Remember where this first converation started: 

per a PSA to "shut the fuck up". When it comes to talking to the police. This is NOT easy to do. We're programmed to just assume that if you speak the truth and aren't doing anything wrong, everything will work out. Usually it does. But when it does, that's just a roll of the wheel. 

You don't want the roll of the wheel. Is my point. 

You want either the: "I don't have to play this stupid game" or, if you must, because you yourself run the house. 

"It", and what I mean by "It" is all of these systems of deprogramming backed by some TLA or other - some process - that instills more useful "virtues" (for lack of a better word). 

Here, for example, "to be silent". What does that mean? Should one take a vow of silence as some sort of monastic vow? No. 

It means simply to remain silent that about that which you choose to carry out as per your will. You don't say a word about it. Not to anyone. Not even your most trusted companions. Certainly not to those who will interrogate you for having done so. 

This notion of "confession", when these people come about speaking of "over-throwing" western "nomos"... look, western nomos is to us what water is to fish. It's so utterly pervasive that I doubt those that advocate resisting that really know what they mean. What *is* the alternative? 

It comes paradoxically in both holding truth personally sacred inwardly so much so as to deny it. To learn to lie and keep utterly silent even when showered with praise and acceptance. That is, if your life matters more than your image.

To have done, but never to have told a single living soul. Not even in your journal. Not even hinted at. 

To "see" what needs to be done. Carry it out. And to live with that no one will ever know. It takes restraint. Discipline. Severity. There will be no cookies, no badge, no acknowledgment, no accolades. There will only be you, what you have done, and the cross you carry in silence for having done so.

It. "They" are, or are at least suggesting - what everything of any worth is aiming at - is a "new" type of being. But it's not really "new". It is our birth-right. Agency and autonomy. Womb-to-tomb levels of solitude and silence. Two can keep a secret if one is dead. 

Such as is yod (fist), hermit, the virgo you'll never know.

("You'll never know")

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 8
Dark Enlightenment
Some things you have to keep silent on.

 I had a friend in high school and our fathers worked for the same defense contractor.  Mine a material handler, his an engineer. Basically my dad would have delivered internal deliveries to his dad's program among many others. 

He snooped and it was informative. Lasers seemed to be the biggie. And refined to be mounted on various delivery vehicles such as orbital satellites and suborbital two-stage interceptors. When they had puppet that liked The Star Wars motion picture well they expanded that wonderful D.O.E. ledger or however they hide "black budget" spending. After his dad kicked is ass and my dad told me drop it we decided it was information that could (in some lights) be considered treason.

So I get what you mean about not rolling the wheel.
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 8
AK Jan 8
The dad fucked-up by even telling his son. 

Now, how to live such a life? pffff___ you gotta rewire some basic tendencies. I might actually trust you, but there's going to be things we're both better off you not knowing a thing about. That whole basic need to share and confide with another living person: it needs to be re-thought. It's not about "trust no one" you can trust them. There's just some things you don't talk about. 

At the end of the day, sure, I might trust the person - I just don't trust what they'd do when faced with an accessory after the fact. 

No one needs to know anything but me and "God". It's a hard way to live, though. 'Takes some deprogramming. 

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 8
Dark Enlightenment
He didn't tell. My friend went through his dad's shit because he wanted to know why he was in San Diego that week.  He found a poster, the type displayed in that projects office. Aparently before then launching a missile from a moving nuclear submarine wasn't possible. They had to stop. That is the one he got his ass kicked for, or so he said.

Some things are better kept silent. Especially when those things are very sensitive and have real world consequences.  As much as it pays to be rational, some times you just want to see whats at the end of that tunnel. Because why would you not want to see?

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 8
AK Jan 8
I see. That's whole 'nother scenario to learn from. Be careful what you write down - even to Pythagorean (whose tie-in to the above mentioned is not lost on me) extremes.  

Naturally I'm in no way saying "Dude! A.'.A.'. is the bomb! You have no idea what you're talking about" - 'fact is some of its followers have some really goofy ideas as well. This is true of nearly every cult or mystery tradition. From AMORC, to Dyanetics, to OTO, probably ONA: there's some whackadoo stuff about all of these things to sift through with some useful (and eerily similar) exercises and practices. You'd be amazed at what a disciplined mind can do... which is really at the heart of the jhanas or dhyana. Top that with individuation, and the end result is nothing short of a force of nature. *which is not to say I've attained the summit, either. Nope. But I'm working on it. Perhaps that's all one can aim for is an asymptotic approach.

Trace it - these mystery traditions - back far enough, and you sort of get a picture of time when Democracy itself was a radically new and seditious ideology - and it wasn't all that long ago, either. Notions of Jesus as a revolutionary, or John Dee as a spy - which may possibly go for Crowley as well. Parables and highly obfuscated languages make a bit more sense in terms of plausible deniability. Taqiyya. Same deal with hasidic Jews basically getting a "pass" when it comes to customs. Or that no one really suspects the Amish of being kingpins. The useful subterfuge that is the alien or seemingly absurd.

Honne and tatemae.

But I digress. At the core of literally all of these "systems" there's something useful. These things tend to be universal, too - practices that arm the psyche to support the rigors of autonomy, and the consequences that are likely to follow in the wake of its assertion.

For example: yoga. Maintaining an awkward position for hours and hours at a time. Think practice for stress-positions - a common interrogative technique designed to break the captives will. Spending days or even months with no human contact - also a technique designed to break one's will. 

Memory exercises reduce the need to write things down. Memory maps such as the tree of life assist in this. 

The desocialization process minimizes the impact of LBM tactics employed by the authorities. 

That's what it all basically comes down to: sharpening the mind and strengthening the will - the "spirit". Those are the only two things you got. It is upon those two pillars everything you have that can be taken away rests. 

Not that we're on red-alert now, but then again, the frogs in the pot seldom see it coming. Religion has never been very far-removed from politics. I suspect, that what it is that one is "tapping into" when dealing with henosis is the very society-building instinct embedded within the wiring of the human psyche. To answer to God IS to answer to Government - the nebulous "Governing aspect" of the psyche. That which brings order and meaning if only to tarry for a time against the continuous onslaught of a truly nihilistic reality.

(who teaches bees how to build honey combs?)

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 8
Dark Enlightenment
You'd be amazed at what a disciplined mind can do... which is really at the heart of the jhanas or dhyana.  

I realized I am a lot like a Christian right now. Whenever I see anything with sanskrit lineage I think, "Now I have to look up what that is".  I hate reading. I can't make it past a few pages without losing interest. Wikipedia seems about the extent of what can be read within the attention span window. Reading about Jhanas or dhyana cannot teach discipline the way trial by fire can. Get a little less bloody each time. 

Another example of things that gloss me over would be any tree of life. Most people mean the tree of Jew life that looks like the lights at a drag strip, but then also the whole discord tree of life, which looks more like other trees of life, including the Mayan.

In the end they are pictures of trees that do nothing.

That's what it all basically comes down to: sharpening the mind and strengthening the will - the "spirit". Those are the only two things you got. It is upon those two pillars everything you have that can be taken away rests

Say what now?

Can't make it work, personally.  I am too bipolar at night for meditation or anything approaching tantra. 

That type of attainment has never done it for me.

Instead of a tree of life for my "outline" I tend to stay up compiling dry statistical lists and sharpening my mind through boring data analysis, and I enjoy it very much.  Plus Almanacs are bibles, and their lists are my scripture.  This serves the function of the above.  A side benefit is its helped me put together my "roulette wheel" worldview much in the same way more esoteric approaches do for others.  

Will seems solely sharpened by the Fire.  All meditation can do is prepare you for fire.

Which reminds me, better prepare for some stupid mistakes about to become fire. Tax shit, really fucked.

As far as bee's honeycombs go?  

To borrow a line from a scientologist propaganda film, K-Pax, "Why is a soap bubble round?"

Energy efficiency. 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 8
AK Jan 8
I hear you. Believe you me, even people who are supposedly into this sort of thing tend to zone-out after about a minute or two of discussion. 

That's another instance where the whole "to keep silent" ethic was, to be honest, kind of learned the hard way. It's really obscure stuff. "Heady". Not even everyone with an expressed interest in that sort of thing is really all that interested. The majority of people I talk to in every day life just shrug with a "whatever, that's your bag, AK." and even the people I run into online who "think it's cool and 'really' want to learn" aren't usually all that into it, either. Often the ones that are, are just fucking nuts. So it's better to hold those cards close to one's chest. 'Can't win for losing.

Besides, it's cryptic, tedious, and in someways even superfluous. Just being around it so long (coming on 25 years, actually, not that years mean anything), I find that things I've absorbed a long time ago that seem pretty basic to me are not exactly the common-knowledge I often just assume it is. I end up at a loss to know where to begin. So I mostly just shut the fuck up about it all.

People who've just grown up around cars all their life run into similar situations when discussing car troubles. 

Even those who own and rely upon their cars take very little interest in how they actually work. This becomes exacerbated when dealing with subject matters like the occult that, many would argue rightly, don't actually matter.

The tree of life, funny you mention that, it's actually a very, very minor part of the Qabalah. It's a foot-note, really. Hermeticists just took the concept and built layer upon syncretic layer atop of it and it stuck. Actual Jewish Rabbis just look at the thing and wish these people would just please stop already. Seriously.

What it goes to show, though, is that there's nothing inherently sacred or mystical about it. It's just a schema. You yourself may not be worse off for taking inspiration from it, regarding none of it as particularly sacrosanct and devising your own sort of memory map or file system. That's really all it is. 

Its only real advantage is that some pretty bright people who had the luxury of time to spend thinking about this sort of thing did a lot of the legwork assigning attributes from, say, classical mythology, comparative religion, etc - which, if you get to the heart of any of it, speaks to very broad universals of the human experience. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. This is why we read the classics to begin with. They speak to the core aspects of the human condition without requiring one ever to have seen it from their own back yard. 

Not too unlike with Linux - we can add to it and customize that OS to do whatever we want while at the same time be pretty sure that if we're not so-inclined the defaults work well-enough. 

Again, there are a ton of Crowley freaks, who are way dogmatic and fanatical about this sort of thing. I "get it". "Crowley was never wrong" those types. Please, the guy was wrong about a ton of things, a notorious troll back before there was even an internet, and the things he was right about he'll only mention all of once. Often you'll find his most devout followers harping upon these platitudes of his that he was never too serious about to begin with. Also, a lot of it, after rigorous analysis turns out to be dick jokes! Profound dick jokes. But dick jokes none-the-less. I tip my hat to this.

I have to admit, sadhana is boring. It's tedious. It's like signing up for a dojo, thinking you're going to learn some kung-fu - break some boards -only to find it's repetitive and boring drills. The same punch over, and over, and over, again. And what's worse! Odds are none of this stuff is even going to help in a street fight. Something else entirely happens, instead. A slow and hard-to-describe transformation takes place. 'Same deal with Hermeticism if one works at it "without lust of result". 

Certainly these "kooks" (and they abound) talk a good game about results. E.A. Koetting, for example oh sure "tell me more about the demons you summoned to do your bidding" (whether or not he actually believes this is hard to say, I flip-flop between "he's a truly delusional narcissist" and "he's a really good salesman"... not too unlike my fluctuating opinion on Aquino. It's hard to say because I don't know their actual intentions... and maybe they don't, either. That's also possible.

That's neither here nor there though. As pervasive as those types that swallow this stuff are, they're a whole different animal. 

It may well be that you're not that far off from constructing your own schema and, minus the whole forming an Order with a fancy TLA or selling products and membership dues aspect of things, have more in common with these weirdOs (at least the ones who "get it") than you think.

Taxes: You can lie and hope they don't audit you. You're a gambler, right? If they do, just call it an honest mistake - they're not going to arrest you. They'll tell you what you owe, and as long as you agree to pay it off in monthly installments over the course of two years, it's not even an issue. You don't even have to talk to these people anymore, and if you DO end up having to talk to them... turns out they're "weirdly" friendly. Then again, who isn't friendly when they know they're getting paid one way or another?


"To borrow a line from a scientologist propaganda film, K-Pax, "Why is a soap bubble round?"

Energy efficiency. 

Sure, but you don't see flies making them. Flies___ come to think of it, I don't actually know where they hang their hats___ (Googles "where do flies live?") but I know they do something other than build honeycombs, and how they know to do that is not far off from what it is humans do in building cities. 

(cue Jefferson StarShip)

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 8
Dark Enlightenment

If you ever mention that song again I will hunt you down and cut off your head.  I don't fucking care if it is trendy like hating Nickelback. How can you go from "White Rabbit" to that song? Hated for a reason!!!

Joking aside.

As far as kooks go, to refine disdain is to deal with the EA koeting types in real life.

Ever had to deal with people actively trying to convince you in their bastardized islamic sorcery folklore?

I have.  And they seriously acted like (and believed they were) watchdogs of some closely watched magical mumbo jumbo like what Saudi Arabia does under Sharia law.

I know I have told this before, but it defined me as a person, and I love the fucking story.

The following is entirely accurate and validated by the 5 senses.

I worked at a military commissary at one point. For a Non-profit DoD subcontractor puting bipolar reformed felons to work on military bases.

They were a fucking pill. Apparently some fat bitch somewhere convinced my former coworkers they could piss on the constitution and "save" the coworker with the satanic sulfur tattoo at the DoD  (DeCA) Facility, but really just make themselves more comfortable. Lucky for me they used a moron that would make delusional EA Koeting look worthwhile and logical.

They would forget where I was. As they were trying to call my burnt toast Jesus they were also fucking up so god damn much. I caught them so god damn much. 

On one instance:

"Ralph":  "why hasn't he been saved yet?"

"Catherine": "Because I cant convince him it is a djinn."

Further fun is found when you know people are talking about you, despite their insistence they aren't. Never get pissed, they are sheep anyway.

They would try to get in my head, and did to some extent. I had to come to realize my satanic magical dabblings incurred a djinn for violating The Ethereal Code of Ethics, like what fat pagan bitches have.  That is actually what they were driving at.  I can't make that up.

So one day, one of the weaker ones walked out of the office saying, "Yeah, He gone".  After the internal facepalm I said, "Oh no, whatever will I do?" And she responded, "Yeah, keep talking"

And then I never saw her again.

In a strange way my interaction with those repugnant North County Christian fucks has completely and totally shut me off to anything anyone says about anything I am currently considering. It instilled a deep hatred for all abstract ideas concerning those mystery subjects... and attention... and never fucking off.  

Like bitches with swastikas and ugly face tattoos. Real life bullshit street theater.  I'm surprised I didn't have to save the cute girl to prove my honor to the aggravating fucks.

And actually more surprised I didn't take an AR15 to a Sunday school of peoples precious future zealots.

While this is all in the past, dead, and gone, the experience has given me a robotic like prime directive against invalid operations. And especially being told to consider said invalid operations.  Ironically the term "close-minded" is often used. 

In other spheres key people leave, and all that was is replaced by the next influencial person who decides how everyone should do it.  And apparently that person was Christian.


/\ That's for Starship. 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 8
AK Jan 9
Ha! Mention it? I am doing the Carlton to it exactly right now. Out of sheer spite!

"We built this city" 

"I have.  And they seriously acted like (and believed they were) watchdogs of some closely watched magical mumbo jumbo like what Saudi Arabia does under Sharia law. "

Not as overtly and annoyingly as you have experienced. The closest I've ever got to anything even vaguely resembling what you've mentioned pales by a lot.

Basically in the Philippines there's this "church" that's basically a cult that doesn't actually know it's a cult. They might even exist in all countries, but the Philippines is where I first encountered them. They go by "The Church of God" (yeah! real creative name those guys have going there, right?).

They're really hard to peg in any sort of doctrinal sense. Quasi-evangelical, vaguely Pentecostal, and sort-of-but-not-quite Protestant. Definitely not Catholic. They're a variant - the nature of which one would expect to find when one starts with the premise that the Bible is inerrant, and realizes that in order to make that premise work they're going to have to do some fancy-or-at-least-passable eisegesis for Jesus. This leads to, as you can well imagine, some really goofy ideas concerning salvation. It's almost "cute". 

A strange lot. If you really start pressing them on this sort of thing from a theological perspective - even in the spirit of good-natured discussion - they basically fall back on "love thy neighbor". They lean heavily on the Pauline epistles, but haven't really given much consideration to the obvious issues that come with Saul being who Paul was. And also what Paul wasn't. For them it's basically just "well, it's in the Bible, and the Bible is the word of God, so___".

They're just not too big on theology, so you can't really get very far having that kind of discussion with them as you would with, say, a Rabbi or priest that really knows their stuff as-in that's what they went to school for. 

Mostly focused on works and community, they feed the poor (and poor over in the Philippines is whole 'nother level beneath what we see here - there are areas where they don't even 'have' underpasses to sleep under. Rural poverty. Pan-handling is out of the question. There's only 30 people within a hundred mile radius, and they farm rice in their backyards for a living) so, I can't "knock" that. They're also fiercely loyal to their followers. Dead-ass. Family can't pay tuition for their daughter to go to school or whatever - they got you. No worries. You hungry? They'll feed you. I've seen a lot of that. A member dies and they can't afford a dignified burial - they're on it - and they show up to the funeral, too - expecting not a dime for pay back. Type a stuff that gets a person sort of misty eyed. Goofy as all hell from an intellectual and even theological perspective. But they got heart.

Sort of the opposite of iglesia ni cristo (<-- Google that if ever you're in the mood to want to punch something) in that they serve the poor, and the community. They have a strong ethic - and are probably closer to what Christianity was "supposed" to be than anything else I can name. 

They, because they're sort of "Family friends" have "opinions" on what me and my S/O are doing, but___ it's just mildly annoying. They mean well, so it's just one of those deals where they always got something to say, and you sort smile and nod. Plus, they can really cook - and it's actually kinda cool having a meal with these peeps. I watched a lot of these people grow-up, too and I see that this bizzare little Church just does what it can to look after its flock. I think it makes a lot more sense over there, than here. The paradigm has got to applicable to the situation at hand. It does a ton over there, but here in the US would likely grow corrupt and exclusionary. 

Depends a lot on the situation. Kind of like how my mom will mention "God works in mysterious ways" and I'm not 16 anymore - I just don't have that battery in my back about all that anymore, and besides, she's getting up there in age too, so what am I going to do? Debate her about it? Nah. I just smile and nod and go "yeah. 'sure does".

Anyway they mean well, but YET they have these weird cult-like rules. You can only marry from within the church. Women must wear long dresses. You can't wear gold because "you can't take it to heaven with you". It's one of those deals where like, you see they mean well, but are also just "nah". Then again, it's different over there. Women often take jobs working overseas to support their families. Men just hit it and quit it, leaving the wife's family to raise these children. So I try to put things in context of the culture, too.

^it's not "right" in any sort of scriptural sense, but ain't wrong, either. 

Something's got to look after matters of morality and basic human dignity, and it sure isn't the government. It fills a void. Which is why I'm, strangely, not as opposed to Christianity or any other religion for that matter. It's good when its ripe. When it gets rotten, then you deal with it. I'm more opposed to the fruit that has grown rotten - as it inevitably will. And this applies to literally all things you can think of - not just religion.

There are two ways of looking at things: human life is either priceless or it is worthless. Pick one. Quantitatively speaking, they mean the exact same thing. In the qualitative sense, though, they could not be further opposite from one another. This all goes back to the question of "exactly how divine are we?" Or are we just animals? And if so, should we be at all surprised if we find ourselves treated as cattle on their way to the slaughter-house by the very systems of government our own assessment of one another spawns? Do we even have a right to complain? A leg to stand on?

This has seriously profound implications worth really considering - at least within the scope of civilization. Sure, it's not a galactic scale, but then again, that's not the scale on which we operate to begin with. 

*reigns it back-in*

At any rate, I can't "fault" them. They're out there doing the works. Their doctrinal premises are sophomoric, but you know what's worse? Living in an ivory tower. What good is actually understanding any of this stuff if you're not out there putting that understanding to use? 

Which I think is what you're running into - these gossipy what I like to call "useless machines" who don't actually "do" anything but judge and talk shit. These sort of super-organisms that exist solely to fuel the useless machine that it is. 

Aside from paying taxes, I have no direct experience dealing with these sorts of systems. 

You mentioned "close minded is often used"... it's all closed mindedness. The mind "has" to be closed to some extent in order to function or make decisions at all. They're just hating on that your close-mindedness does not conform to their close-mindedness. 

Even with this notion of "the-tree-of-life-as-a-schema", which is pretty reasonable, I think. It's still its own form of closed-mindedness - I freely admit this. But that's what severity and limitation requires. You can't just operate in a world where "everything's everything", you got to put some order to things: otherwise one may as well be a bloated corpse floating in the Atlantic with that sort of mentality. 

At the very least, you do have a schema, and one which you've given thought to. That's all anyone really needs, and it saves so much trouble as compared to the alternative that is collectivism and group-think.

I even see that a lot here: "Join my order" "help me start a group". No. We're not doing that. It's a stupid idea. It's just like "why? what on earth would you get out of that? Why would you even want to do that?"

There are two types with two different answers to that question:

"I believe we're going to change the world and start something" - the answer to which is: No. Actually, that's never going to happen. The world's going change on its own. Best you can do is take note of the tides. What is going to happen is that you will end up with a ton of WordPress subscribers agreeing with your complaints. If you're lucky, you might make a few bucks off of it - possibly get laid. 


"I want to teach others" - you don't "know" these others. A lot of them are just crazy, dude. Not even crazy in the fun way. Types who need to be sugaring their Cheerios with Risperdal. 

How about no? And besides. If you built a religion on Satanism, then whatever this Satanism is against becomes their Satan and those that are for that become the Satanist's Satanist. It's untenably recursive. 

Not that this is news to you: 'just mentioning that the same pit-falls that any type of dogma-where-it-is-no-longer-useful trips over. It's either not going to do much but acquire validation and alienate those it was supposed to help, OR___ coagulate zealotry and everything that implies. 

In some sense "Satanism" is an antidote for that. 

Also: Seether Fine Again(?) I actually like that song. Takes me back. Actually, it takes me back to that "foggy" transition era - the one I think most people go through but don't remember very well - when they take a look at the stuff they used to get away with in high-school, acknowledge that if they just applied themselves a bit harder they wouldn't *be* working whatever dead-end job they're at now and make do with the shitty hand they played.  

It was actually on the radio at the time when I decided that the death metal band I was in at the time, just wasn't going to make it. Someone would probably end up dead (and they did, sure enough) and our music just wasn't all that good, objectively. C, C- minus grade material. A few catchy riffs I'm proud of, but it's no kind of life - pandering to meat heads. Which is what it was. What is the ROI? Free drinks to play at some super-sketchy club that no one's ever heard of in some state that, although you've never been to, wasn't exactly one you had on your bucket list to begin with? Sunk cost fallacy. 

Where's the future in that? 

So yeah, that song takes me exactly back to when I said "hey, I wish you guys the best - but it's just not going to work - we're 'good' - it was fun - but we're not that good. We sound like 1,200 other unheard-of bands out there. At least 40% of which are just straight-up better - and even the top five in our peer-group barely anyone has ever hear of" 

And you're a musician. That's actually worse than a break-up with any chick or S/O. Those were my friends, but reality is reality. That song was on the radio ALL the time throughout that blurry era. And, 20/20 hindsight, some 13 years later. It was right. It spoke exactly to that. That's what those lyrics meant to me. And even they, too - Seether - that, at the time "made it", where are they now? Exactly.

Sometimes dreams themselves make for the best sacrifices.

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 9
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