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The Satanic Temple - Dominate Satanic Organization | Forum

antonmesmer
antonmesmer Jun 26
That was good. You kinda had me in a defensive posture for a minute there. 

I know what I know, and do what I do. 


I'm not applying for a position on your list of Real Satanists, so I have no reason to produce a resume. 

Dark Enlightenment
Well, now I won't fuck with you because of your response.  Maybe I was a bit presumptuous with assuming you were another Seeker.  Well said. 


So let's change up tone:


Why do you think there isnt a born element? Does that include the "early life influence" as scripting certain personality quirks? 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 26
antonmesmer
antonmesmer Jun 26
I don't believe I ever said there isn't a "born element." 

The typical LaVeyan statement is something like, "Satanists are born, not made." Which means what, precisely? We're "born this way"? It's genetic? There's a "Satan" gene? 

Will two Satanists necessarily produce Satanic offspring, regardless of how those offspring are raised? Are other worldviews also genetic? 

The raw genetic material is being shaped from the time we're in the womb. After birth, we're shaped by our perceptions of what's going on around us (not "what's happening" but what we perceive/think is happening).

Then as we develop self consciousness we take a more active part in deciding what our environment consists of - what things to have around us, what human animals to interact with. Biological development continues, and our thoughts/actions are shaped by hormonal activity.

I have no way to prove it but my intuition is that most people "discover" they're Satanists when they're teenagers. And there are different things going on there. They're actively searching for their place in the world - who am I? where do I belong? etc. The rebellion stuff is kicking in, so they're all about testing (or obliterating) boundaries.


Those who find themselves with a copy of TSB are further shaped by its contents. It might feel like we're just reading it. But the more we identify with the message and (maybe more importantly at that point) the aesthetics, the more we are molded by it. When we start thinking, "yes! that's it!" we're encouraged to develop more in that direction.

There's an interaction of genetics, environment, chemistry, and consciousness, from conception until death. I don't think we're ever really "finished." Change is just nature. 

Seeker
Seeker Jun 26
Quote from antonmesmer I
The typical LaVeyan statement is something like, "Satanists are born, not made." Which means what, precisely? We're "born this way"? It's genetic? There's a "Satan" gene? 

People who can identify themselves with the archetype of Satan are typically natural rebels and individualists with eye for eye mentality because those are the traits of the devil... Traits of a character is seen already on small children. Some children are for example introverts while others are extroverts. Nature shapes us in different ways.




The Forum post is edited by Seeker Jun 26
Dark Enlightenment
Well there will always be white boys from Des Moines in love with "Urban/Hip-Hop Culture". It is hard to not get despondent.
Quote from antonmesmer I don't believe I ever said there isn't a "born element." 

The typical LaVeyan statement is something like, "Satanists are born, not made." Which means what, precisely? We're "born this way"? It's genetic? There's a "Satan" gene? 

Will two Satanists necessarily produce Satanic offspring, regardless of how those offspring are raised? Are other worldviews also genetic? 

The raw genetic material is being shaped from the time we're in the womb. After birth, we're shaped by our perceptions of what's going on around us (not "what's happening" but what we perceive/think is happening).

Then as we develop self consciousness we take a more active part in deciding what our environment consists of - what things to have around us, what human animals to interact with. Biological development continues, and our thoughts/actions are shaped by hormonal activity.

I have no way to prove it but my intuition is that most people "discover" they're Satanists when they're teenagers. And there are different things going on there. They're actively searching for their place in the world - who am I? where do I belong? etc. The rebellion stuff is kicking in, so they're all about testing (or obliterating) boundaries.


Those who find themselves with a copy of TSB are further shaped by its contents. It might feel like we're just reading it. But the more we identify with the message and (maybe more importantly at that point) the aesthetics, the more we are molded by it. When we start thinking, "yes! that's it!" we're encouraged to develop more in that direction.

There's an interaction of genetics, environment, chemistry, and consciousness, from conception until death. I don't think we're ever really "finished." Change is just nature. 


I think there is enough in support of genetic memory to support a "born" claim.

I hate to parrot Anton, but "if Alcoholics can be born"...  And so there is some depth to that.

You see alcoholism in the "predisposed to heavy drinking cultures", mainly Gaelic/English variants. English, Irish, White American, Canadian, and Australian. 

And you see susceptibility in cultures with no immunity.  That the Indians (feathers) had such violent and severe reactions in the inverse. I still feel it shows "things introduced by culture effect behavior and genetic memory."

Using that as establishment of precedent:

The VMAT2 gene may provide a necessary genetic mutation. As ideologies and cultural norms are part of the human habitat they have every ability to prompt mutation.

Religion is some cultures everything. Their piddly beliefs so inherent and prominent in their culture it can be woven into adaptive traits.

I do not think that gene is god or even faith specific, I think of it as a "necessary detractor" gene that can arise as an emergent phenomenon to prevent stagnation in the gene pool, assuming ideas are dynamic enough to prompt adaptation.


In our culture it may arise as an inherent skepticism and antitheism.

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 26
antonmesmer
antonmesmer Jun 26
I don't believe alcoholics, or addicts in general, are "born," either. And that's kind of an area of study I spend a lot of time in. There is, as yet, no "alcoholic gene." So, no precedent. (Check out Stanton Peele, Lance Dodes, and Marc Lewis to see my basic view of addiction.)

Satanism is a philosophy, a worldview. That's conceptual. I just don't see it being passed on genetically. 
Dark Enlightenment
Well, I am not absolving their weakness, I will say my point really rests on 


If alcohol had no effect on biology and genetic memory or at least in the "tolerance of", it wouldn't have had the fucked effect it did on landbridge crossing indigenous folk. Beyond just never encountering it or its effects. 


The very existence of such written about "fire water"  noise is more than just colonial bullshit. Their bodies could not handle it in the ways europeans could. That two homo sapiens had different reactions alone says "alcohol in cultures that had it" have tolerance in genetic memory. Some have not only tolerance but a draw to it. Beyond "via immersion alone".


 Studies have shown children of mothers who quit smoking years before pregnancy can still grow up seeing a cigarette and really wanting it for a strange reason their 8 year old mind cant put together.   Even with out exposure to watching it as a learned behavior. 


And that's with chemicals.  


I see it as a "Humans are god's perfect creatures above environmental adaptation" arrogance. As if there have been no mutations since Mesopotamia.  Very Christian, almost like it's a genetic memory of some sort or least it is heavily ingrained to elevate ourselves above every other animal.


Too often falling into the trap of "well sharks really haven't changed" and apply it falsely to the dynamic environment humans live.  Tokyo, Japan for humans is every bit a habitat that South Pacific islands are for birds and reptiles. 


But then I likewise do not differentiate much between nomadic hunting with spears and how crows work in teams to open doors and shit. Logic being: Anything that effects an organisms experience will be adapted to if need be. And when organic idea becomes so ingrained its almost born in (like faith or blind obedience) you gotta hope at least that a fraction of a percent are Browncoats. 


I will check those writers out though. 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 26
Seeker
Seeker Jun 27
Quote from antonmesmer I don't believe alcoholics, or addicts in general, are "born," either. And that's kind of an area of study I spend a lot of time in. There is, as yet, no "alcoholic gene." So, no precedent. (Check out Stanton Peele, Lance Dodes, and Marc Lewis to see my basic view of addiction.)

Satanism is a philosophy, a worldview. That's conceptual. I just don't see it being passed on genetically. 

I think you take "born and not made" too literally. What LaVey mean is that you don't become a Satanist. You realise you are a Satanist because you can see yourself reflected in the archetype of Satan. Satanism was created as a religion because LaVey realised it was the key to make Satanists able to cooperate as cooperation empowers the individual. As I mentioned earlier then the black mass ritual and the destruction ritual is about changing the indvidual so he can handle undesirable influences and not about a cause.


And now today since CoS and TST has destroyed a lot of the satanic world of society then it's good that LaVey wrote the rituals down in TSB and TSR so a Satanist can perform them alone...

The Forum post is edited by Seeker Jun 27
Tkwilliams Member
Tkwilliams Jul 4
I agree with both of you. I think it is a specific personality trait that doesn't fall the "programming ". I know they can tell if a person is easily hypnotized from your genetic make up so I think that answer can be related to that.  I also agree that satanism is a personal philosophy. I use it to navigate this modern world and other things I satisfy my spiritual life with heathenry the two seem to work together very well.


I also believe that satanism and is rituals are perfect and necessary to brake the brainwashing of any abrahamic rigorous poison. 

Brother Shamus
It can be both when the trait feeds the individualism. 

You also can claim a more authentic claim as a Norse Heathen. The attainment is through a way in antithesis of normal morality.

The trait comes in [here]

Your trait drew you towards an antithetical way. You don't have call it Satanism or anything you don't want to.  It falls way more under the LHP umbrella than others.
Baphomets
Baphomets Jul 4
<<<<FART>>>>
Dark Enlightenment
Yup, pretty much all you offer.
Tkwilliams Member
Tkwilliams Jul 5
That was really well articulated brother s. Thanks


Tkwilliams Member
Tkwilliams Jul 5


Right back at you baphomets ;)

PlasmoticJezebel
Without necessarily sipping on hateraide: TST never did anything to bring Satanism to anyone's attention except in an incidental way, they instead utilized Satanism as a means of bringing attention to themselves. Whether or not that is "Satanic" in and of itself is as debatable as one's vocabulary is limited. 


In his musings LaVey has been known to cite as being "Satanic" almost everything and the kitchen sink at one point or another. Though namely to point-to that which resonates with the ways of the world as concerns materialism, attraction, aesthetics, and various other unspoken "laws" of the world contrary to "virtuous" asceticism and/or self-denial, this, in turn, has lent itself to the kind of rhetoric from both his supporters and detractors that borders on "his name is Robert Paulson" levels of absurdity as pertains to the "definitive" meaning of the word Satanic. 


Their logic runs something along the lines of "If LaVey can redefine Satanism to suite his needs, so can we! The Church of Satan doesn't own the rights to it!" while simultaneously advertising themselves as an "evolution" of the Church of Satan because___ "game theory"(?) and asserting that what they're doing is in the same spirit as the Church of Satan except they're at least doing something. This, however, is the bridge too far. 


It's true, no one owns the rights to the word Satanism. If they want to call themselves the Satanic Temple for any reason or for no reason at all, there's no issue with that. Satanic and Satanism, like every other word in the dictionary, has a meaning. Anyone can look it up. Words still mean things, and if some group of sniveling SJWs or aging epicureans want to communicate something other than what the word means with that word: have at it. I wouldn't recommend it, but it's a free country. As it goes with any word, if the dictionary is somehow not good enough, consensus and context alone ultimately determines what it means. These things can't really be forced; language doesn't work like that. As to what is or is not Satanic specifically: regardless of what TST or C/S or anyone claims, it's a word generally reserved for things, thoughts, and deeds so reprehensible to the social fabric and moral sensibilities of a given culture as to require a reference to the preterhuman. This is from whence comes the word's uncanny ability to attract attention in the first place. 


Now, if TST were to state "look, we use the word Satanism for X,Y, and Z purposes" I don't think anyone would have much of an issue with it. Nearly everyone who uses the word at all uses it to convey something slightly different than the next, thus the oft repeated qualifications of "my Satanism___" or "Satanism as I apprehend it___". But for TST to suggest that they're using it to describe a more refined version of what the C/S was pointing-at is just plain goofy. That dog don't hunt. The misanthropic, elitist, anti-egalitarian, victim-hood eschewing sentiment characteristic of the very bedrock and foundation of the C/S variety of Satanism could not possibly be more incompatible with any SJW's agenda. Period. 


I favor neither one of the two over the other, but to suggest that because they use the same word to encapsulate their organizational objectives a comparison between the two should or even can be made is just fucking silly at best! Such comparisons do neither the one making the comparisons nor those being compared any favors as the two could not be any more fundamentally unrelated.

The Forum post is edited by PlasmoticJezebel Jul 6
T.Volt
T.Volt Jul 8

Here's a comparison:


C/S: Old meaty dogshit, long cooked in the sun.


TST: Vegan dogshit, fresh (*We'll just assume the dog ate what it's derpy smelly bun sporting "master" gave it).


Or, one is a weenerdog, the other a poodle. "a noodle, a doodle..."

I like to think Bob knew exactly what he was doing with old Dr. Leo Marvin.

In other words, there is just Satanism in many other fictional places than C/S or TST that make far more sense.


EDIT: On the flip side, I should say that what really gets my interest, is meeting the people in real life. I can't say how many actual Satanists I've met, but I've encountered a few people in my travels and life who fit the bill.
In terms of the OP, it's not an evil agenda of theirs that catches my attention, but their lack of one (or a good one for that matter) and seem to thrive on random change, they don't resist it, nor stop learning and have tales to tell and tricks to show, that are anything but a mere "show". I think these types probably have not even heard or thought of the word "Satanist" in their life, but have simply adapted to one of consistent change and other challenges and don't seem to take it too harshly, while the more "normal" type cringe at the thought of doing anything other than the common daily routine. These "others" would seems Satanic in that they don't fit yet some are quite personable if one is willing to open their shell a little more. Others not so much at all. Some nicer, some meaner. Fact is we're just animals, and we humans either develop our own groove in life or we sulk. Many of us refuse to do the later in spite of things that others find too challenging.

The Forum post is edited by T.Volt Jul 8
Triplesix007
Triplesix007 Jul 12
I think all Satanic churches and organizations are good for Satanism because they teach our people about Satanism and the left hand path and that gives us more wisdom to understand about thing in life Satanic groups should work together in solidarity and not compete with each other so we can be a united people.
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