Ideological Common Source and Catastrophe | Forum

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Dark Enlightenment
My rip on Ancient Aliens got me thinking about how Ideas spread, something brought up by one of the Ancient Aliens harshest critics. 

And then I got stoned.

Michael Heiser has a theory that the similarity in world myth draws to a common oratory source and associated events.

I think geological and climatological history may actually support this.

In recent human existance (70,000 BCE - present) there have been TWO significant population bottlenecks. The first was caused by The Lake Toba Supervolcano.  Evidence suggests around 6-12 years of volcanic winter and 1000 years of cooling accompanied the dwindling of the earth's human population to under 3,000, with a speculated 800 breeding adults. 

The more important one occuring at the height of the last Ice Age, around 40,000 years ago.  The Glacial procession was so extensive that humans were literally pushed to very narrow habitable zone in Subsaharan Africa, with a relatively condensed population falling once again to 2000 breeding pairs. Following this was an extensive prolonged time of little genetic variation that lasted until The Stone Age. 

While it is true humans began dispersing out of Africa before the Toba Supervolcano, those who did were killed or later pushed right back by ice. You can form a very plausible chronology dating fossil records.

I add to Heiser by saying the event that gave all of Mankind a similar story can be drawn to around 40,000-70,000 years ago telephoned right to the Stone Age.

With population bottlenecks and global catastrophe so recent in the fossil record it's no wonder why the mythical past is littered with environmental catastrophe.

It is worth noting by 70,000 BCE only three hominids remained; Homo sapien, Neanderthal, and Denisovian (almost gone).


The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 18
Baphomets Jan 18
Imagine what the gene pool would be littered with if these catastrophes had never taken place...  Even better, imagine Earth's resources. However, this is Earth's history. Are you prepared for the next catastrophe? Conspiracy? Global warming? Agenda 21? Are they all the same?
Baphomets Jan 18
As far as Heiser's "theory," interesting.
Dark Enlightenment
Yes, only the most resourceful and adaptive specimens survived these. Darwin covered that one. Today there is no real threat to reproduction so it is more Mike Judge territory.... obviously.

Fun Fact:  I am a better prophet than Nostradamus because there's no Spanish Inquisition and I can be specific unlike his "I dont want to be beheaded" ass. 

1. LA disaster:

On a dreary evening glowing lights will appear in the sky

The gloom draws into the next day. The people wake. 

From the big bend in the clutch of Saint Andrew the earth will convulse

Many a Coachella Valley golf courses will be torn assunder and bridges will fall within 30 years at a 90 percent likelihood. 

2. Cascadia Disaster. (See Thunderbird myth for details) About 50% by 2100. 

3.  Florida and much of The Eastern Seaboard dissapears under the waves like that one ringed port in greece people wont shut the fuck up about. 

You can go on like this ad infinitum..

As far the next "environmental" disaster.

I'd imagine it would be a time when 300 species die off a day, Antartica melts exponentially faster, ocean salinity changes, and droughts and floods get more pronounced/extreme than any point in recorded human history. 


My favorite "How humans fuck the Earth" is very very recent. So recent it doesnt register in the Geoligical history. Around the time the Farallon Plate was subducting into the mantle uplifting the West there were much greater stresses on the central part of the North American Plate. There is a pre-quarternary rift zone reinvigorated by BP, and the like. They really did release Cthulhu.  

Fun Fact: It now shakes more in Stillwater, OK than San Fransisco, CA. 

* Post edit * - And please don't say that again.

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 18
Baphomets Jan 18
Your Fun Facts and replies bring me pleasure.
The Forum post is edited by Baphomets Jan 18
AK Jan 18
It would be impressive in and of itself that an aural tradition from 40,000 years ago survived the 34,500 years necessary to see the advent of the written language some 5,500 years ago. 

It is possible and even likely that the preliterate mind was simply better at retaining information. "for this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves." - a point which is still valid despite the glaring irony of the sentiment itself having been written down. 

What I will never know is to what extent literacy is a detriment to memory. Culturally the trade-off seems worth it (they don't call it prehistoric for nothing), but it may have come at quite a significant unwitting individual sacrifice. So too with the internet.

Alternatively, these catastrophic events may well just be coded into the collective unconscious. There are, for example, interesting studies out there to suggest that off-spring inherit their father's traumatic experiences. 

Debatable, of course, but it is interesting at least in that it may provide a clue as to the mechanisms behind which this "collective unconscious" came into being: https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/can-we-inherit-fear-our-parents

Sins of the father, indeed. 

*it is my current understanding that "prophets" had access not so much to a spiritual well-spring of information, but were rather able to read protected-memory within their own wiring; and that the two are one and the same. This, anecdotally evidenced to my satisfaction inadvertently tampering with the phenomenological effects of throwing my own GABA and dopamine levels sufficiently out of whack as to risk seizure... twice. God exists entirely within the brain. This gives me quite a bit of pause as to what actually happens in the bardo state as all of those 100 - 1000 trillion synapses flood their clefts in one last gasp of air. All the more so considering how dilated time itself can become under even normal circumstances.

Homo sapien, Neanderthal: I think similar to the Israelites and the Canaanites, Rome "conquering" Greece - history repeated itself or at least rhymes - it wasn't the clear-cut victory it was made out to be. In fact, there was quite a bit of interbreeding and assimilation going on. Collectively "we" sense how the story of civilization will go, because we've been playing out these same embedded logic-circuits for aeons. 

Dark Enlightenment

The oral/aural tradition aspect led to my 'stoned' qualifier. 

I dont think it needs to be an exact story, as much as imprinting of calamity into our collective memory.  40,000-70,000 years is not as long as one might think. Even in 7000 years of recorded history the song has remained relatively the same. 2 out of 5 Americans still think 7000 years is the earths age.

Many of the oldest stories seem to include an element of sky turning color followed by death.  I have only to say the scope of the event was so massive it was passed on much in the same way "sky gods exist in sky" = "heaven exists in the sky".  Though severely warped I think there is enough commonality remaining to link these beliefs separated by 7000 years.  That's just an idea too.  The death of 99% of all hominid life?

I dont think we give the preliterate mind enough credit, and agree with you in that regard.

Anyway, thats the best counter I can come up with.

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 18
AK Jan 18
"2/5 American still think 7000 years is the earths age..."

As years wore-on, I've found myself becoming more and more lenient regarding this absurdity. There is no questioning the age of the earth. I see it more or less a matter of common misconception as to what their Bible was trying to say. 

"in the beginning was the word" - the logos. So to me, on one level of analysis (and I am one of those people who see layers of meaning in religious texts as they are a collection of interconnected symbols and not signs - still, some levels are more relevant than other) it's saying "ok, we're going to mark the beginning as the advent of the written word", which was ~7,000; the beginning of history and the end of the prehistoric (meaning literally prior to written records) That's a perfectly logical place for a Bible (meaning book) to start. I figure we're looking at the beginning of the urbanized world rather than the natural order.

How one interprets Genesis is another matter, but the notion of giving things names pervades. To differentiate between night and day, etc. What god spoke, made, and saw all hinge upon the question of what "god" is. Given a certain amount of latitude granted by virtue of considering that god is a thing that the mind does - an intrinsic self-organizing principle, I'm not that harsh of a critic of the literature in and of itself especially given what they had to work with. Notions of god, law, and the kingdom, etc, it makes a bit more sense. It is comprehensible when taken from an anthropocentric perspective.

In other words I see what they're trying to say (or at least project what I think they mean on to it) and if others take it literally - even though it was never even from the earliest days meant taken literally - there's nothing I can do to fix that. Some people just lack imagination. 

The question I keep coming back to was exactly how large of a step literacy itself was in the evolution of our species. There was certainly a trade-off - a sacrifice of some sort - and I don't think major evolutionary leaps take place without that.

As to the collective imprinting, I am reminded of snakes. I remember the first time I saw one in our yard. I was also preliterate. No one told me to be afraid of them. I was never taught this. In fact, I was later taught that these kinds of snakes were harmless. All the same, I was startled. Almost as if my body reacted before my mind registered that my eyes had even seen it. In that respect, more startled that my body reacted that way than at the sight of this unfamiliar nope rope in the grass. 

*perhaps Eden speaks to an underlying flaw in this Jerusalem / civilization building paradigm of ours - that no amount of words or commandments will ever truly usurp our prehistoric instincts pertaining to matters of the knowledge of life and death. This is a tendency we will have to contend with. 

How that knowledge gets passed down is interesting to me, and may bear relation to these vaguely catastrophic events you had mentioned. 

The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 18
Dark Enlightenment

How one interprets Genesis is another matter, but the notion of giving things names pervades. To differentiate between night and day, etc. What god spoke, made, and saw all hinge upon the question of what "god" is.

Archeological evidence to the sort of rescue.

The problem with many expeditions to holy sites was the extreme confirmation bias of those conducting research.

A less religiously motivated dig at Mt. Megiddo unearthed the most conclusive evidence for the timeline. There is zero evidence for a technology transfer between Egypt and the 250 mile distant Israel. While trade and war did occur there is a consistent mound of data to show Egypt was there and mesopotamia was here.  Tools differed. There was no linear track of tools from egypt being taken across the Sinai Peninsula. No exodus. One became the other on the israel side.

1312 BCE - Nothing happened. Sorry, Moses. This is an arbitrary date of bullshit said to have been first spoke of in the 10th century in The Kingdom of Judah and first written in 6th century Akkad.

10th Century BCE - What I just said

9th Century BCE - First text "Ruth" said to surface.

<Too much fighting, name changing, land changing to summarize>

6th Century BCE

It is called the Axial Age for a reason. Zoroaster to Buddha to Noah and his inbred yacht all came to be around now. 

Babylonia (Akka Akkad) was falling to shit and monotheism was taking off. As part of a divine land grab, The books; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy were written to validate a new person, an "Israelite" (Hebrew) , formally "the twelve tribes of Israel" as having rightful land provenance. Along with Akkad was Assyria to supersede. 

By 500 BCE They were the descendents of chosen escaped slaves that were unfairly kept captive by Babylonia for 7 centuries.

The timeline is there, and the intent is fairly obvious.

Genesis is largely considered stolen from Enuma Elish, which makes sense seeing their disdain for Babylon, Akkad, whatever the fuck they called it. One could interpret it simply as, "Ok, now we need a creation story".  The Epic of Gilgamesh being another heavily "borrowed from" source.
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 18
AK Jan 18
Sure. But, again, I don't hold literalists in all that high regard to begin with. It'd be silly to hold, say, the Kojiki as a historical document - and to hold it to that standard. It's a myth, and an obvious one. A purposeful narrative. No different than the myth that, for example, America was discovered in 1492, or that Americans defeated the Nazis and saved the whole world, or that the Capitoline Wolf depicts a historical event in the founding of Rome.
The Forum post is edited by AK Jan 18
Dark Enlightenment
To take it back to the topic I sorta drifted from.

The common source, albeit a bit down the line.

The last true homonid exodus out of Africa occurred coinciding with the end of the Neanderthal towards the end the Pleistocene Epoch.  Starting 60,000 years ago, post Toba bottleneck, small numbers began venturing out, after the 40,000 year ago population bottleneck (that almost killed off The Cheetah as well), humans really got going and became the last man standing.

By The Holocene those had spread to North America, all descendents of the same 800 breeding adults (some citing as few as 80) and incorporated Neaderthal, the likely reason for interbreeding and subsesqent extinction. All descendents of the same naturally selected traits that helped them survive. Genetic research has shown this may include ideological and behavioral predispositions.  To remember what killed their kind.

/\ That is a fucking stretch, but worth tossing out.

The major ones stuck. Especial calamity related ones. 

More recently you have a core sample (2900 BCE) taken from land in between the Tigris and Euphrates.  Iraq, like many other places at that latitude was grassland at the beginning of the Holocene Epoch. The Monsoon rains pushed south leaving an Arid flat playa and an extremely rare flood plain.   Sedimentary layers match up to this as an increasingly rare event.

An event so massive would have been incorporated, First into The Epic of Gilgamesh.
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 19
AK Jan 19
It's entirely possible and likely the flood is referencing an event of the type you've described, though I do not think it stops there. Linearism is as bad of an approach to art, music, and poetry as it is to myth. Its deficiencies become quite apparent when dealing with religious concepts that unavoidably contain elements of self-similarity that without consideration of, vast swaths of meaning remain totally uncomprehended.
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