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When Self Mastery Loses Its Value | Forum

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Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 1 '18
Simple: Self control and mastery loses all value when that's what is expected of you. There is no feeling of pride when your "internal change" is rewarded by a pat on the back.

Like the military,  It is a role that comes with an inherent subservience.  A situation in which personal growth could be bitter.

This leads us to the question:

Could you ever feel accepted by positive reinforcement or would it feel like breaking?
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 1 '18
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AK
AK Oct 1 '18
This is a terrible topic and you should be ashamed for even posting it(?)


Being rewarded by a pat on the back is fine. The effects of such range from neutral to encouraging. I happen to like it when others pay me compliments and pat my ass. It's a nice perk that comes with competence.


Being motivated by a pat on the back, however, fringes on people-pleaser territory. This is to be avoided.

Anna
Anna Oct 1 '18
I don't know why other people's opinion should be relevant at all. You do what you think will be best for you. If you fuck up, you will know it. Positive or negative reinforcement be damned. And internal change? LMAO. There is only a set of strategies to employ or avoid, depending on the circumstances.
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 1 '18
Agreed. My mind was made up and my course acted on long before this topic. 


These are after the fact talking points.

The question could be stated as, How do you respond to unwilling positive reinforcement.  *AND* does that feel like a manipulation?*


Or in Meme Cat terms


The alleged O9A's alleged 'legacy' concerning the people these wicked hellcats use as pawns.


Could you ever be that hypothetical 'jape' that breaks to the 'OG's' whatever, waterboarding maybe, and feels fulfilled by a newfound acceptance? Does it feel like you are being made into their slave? And how could such week willed approach leave you fulfilled? 'Belonging'?


The types that trust the good cop and make the pressed for statement instead of asking for a lawyer and ignoring everything else.


I realize this is an absurd topic, but I think it highlights how such things either foster strength through principle or underscore weakness and susceptibility to manipulation. 


The 'jape' that cares more about doing it as "right as possible" versus being perturbed at the audacity of "right ways" in general. 


Not every situation of "right ways" applies. It's still  not a good idea to drive the wrong way in traffic. 

We could even put it in Homo terms: What if you were an obvious gay and everyone you knew decided to drag you out of the closet? And what if you did what they wanted and all of sudden they started acting nicer? Would everyone's open arms be a reward at all?

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 1 '18
AK
AK Oct 1 '18

Quote from Dark Enlightenment

The question could be stated as, How do you respond to unwilling positive reinforcement.  *AND* does that feel like a manipulation?*


It's a perk. A compliment. Nothing more. Consider sex. Whether it's all "OMG baby, you're so incredible! That was amazing!" or "meh. Let's not do that again - ever" I still came. Mission accomplished. The former - which is a form of positive reinforcement, after all - is a certain extra that I can't fathom anyone feeling terrible about. 'Same goes for just about any other productive or creative venture - and for the same reasons. People enjoy doing well first and foremost, and the kudos are just plain nice-feeling. I can't think of a situation where I've ever been the recipient of unwanted praise or reinforcement, and can't imagine anyone can. At worst it is met with indifference. 


(tangent)


How this differs from talking to the police - good cop or bad cop - is that:


- NOTHING you say or do can work in your favor. They can only be called to the stand to testify against you. 


- Anything you say to them that could work in your favor will be dismissed by a competent prosecutor as hearsay. 


- If they're going to arrest you, you are not talking your way out of that, so don't bother.


- Something you might say may implicate you in the violation of a law you were not only not being questioned about, but totally unaware of. (Do you know ALL the laws? I sure don't. G.O.K. how many one has broken totally unawares)


- And worse! If even part of your statement is found to be false or exaggerated, you're done. There IS no upside to or "positive reinforcement" to be gained, even if you're totally innocent. 

The Forum post is edited by AK Oct 1 '18
Anna
Anna Oct 2 '18
@DL If that's what you believe, then you don't really understand how manipulation works. It is always preceded by more or less accurate study of the target's character. If I figure out you're vain and people's pleaser, I will shower you with compliments and rewards to make you help me to realize my goal. On the other hand, if I conclude that you're you're rebellious and contrarian or neurotic by nature, I will try to push your reactive buttons, if there are any. Then instead of praises, you're more likely to confront a little bit of harassment that will serve as provocation. In that case, you'd better stay calm instead of going all histerical.

What the manipulator says or writes is irrelevant. It's just a strategy. What matters is your response to it and whether  you fall for an obviously obvious bullshit trap. Breaking something to someone alone doesn't matter too. What counts is you emotional attitude, the way you behave in response to the outer stimulus.

That being said, not all praise or criticism is a form of manipulation. Some of it could be genuine. I see nothing wrong with sincere appreciation of one's qualities. Seriously, if people say some nice things to you, do you always show them your middle finger and generally act like a douche?
Albert Resigned
Albert Oct 2 '18

I agree with Anna. She understands how Manipulation works.


Using positive reinforcement as a means to make a target feel "accepted" is double primitive. It's a nice way to start learning the basics of manipulation and psychological coercion. 


The more you practice, the many more times you will fail. The more you fail, the more you learn how to manipulate better, and more importantly: more subtly. 


You expand your knowledge base: read and study topical genres such as marketing, advertising, and propaganda. Learn strategies they use, figure out how to use such techniques with what you're doing.   


Study logical fallacies, and then use the same fallacies to your advantage, because most people are prone to fallacious reasoning anyways: this is a good book to start with

Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18

Ok lets go with this:

If I figure out you're vain and people's pleaser, I will shower you with compliments and rewards to make you help me to realize my goal. On the other hand, if I conclude that you're you're rebellious and contrarian or neurotic by nature, I will try to push your reactive buttons, if there are any. Then instead of praises, you're more likely to confront a little bit of harassment that will serve as provocation. In that case, you'd better stay calm instead of going all histerical.

This is a great fucking example. Essentially the person trying to push your buttons, the proverbial neurotic fat ass Southie bitch, wins unless you practice passive resistance. It will remain that way until stop reacting. Until your "self mastery" (ability to not be provoked) wins.  


Now that right there is my trigger, what pisses me off.

I don't consider not reacting to button pushing as virtuous. Or as the title says, an example of self mastery. It becomes more like a conduct mandate: "In order to have self mastery here you must not react to this."

In interpersonal interaction that seems like a recipe to be a punk bitch. 

It is manipulation on both ends.

"Good for you for not reacting, you must have self control. You turned the other cheek and diffused me. Well done."


Vs. 

"See, you can't control your reaction you have no self control. You will never get past this until you do".

As not caring counts as the former, there are only two possible responses.

Even the bullied kid getting shit talked in passing period will feel better if he/she goes up to the person trying to push them and knocks all the shit out of their hand or body checks them against the lockers.

For me personally: There is no such thing as counter-productive pride. I would rather fight indefinitely then concede my will, which is what not reacting to provocation feels like. 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
AK
AK Oct 2 '18
I'm hard-pressed to think of a single instance of human interaction that isn't manipulative. Look past the negative connotations and that's really what all one is doing when one interfaces with another is - manipulating them. That's not always a bad thing. Often times they like it; they just hate how the word sounds or makes them feel about it (even if it is reciprocal)


How do you avoid being manipulated? I don't think you can. I really don't. There's no getting around it when even refusing to react is still a reaction, and everything being reacted to is, in some form or another, manipulation.

The Forum post is edited by AK Oct 2 '18
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
That sounds like it is great for you, and many others here. 

You can avoid a degree of manipulation by never trusting anyone, never letting anyone in, and always assuming people are out to rape you, and that's what's great for me. You just must also release a need for human companionship. Friend is forever a 4 letter word.


 It may be a fucking fallacy or whatever but the Faggot ONA wannabe would still avoid "the trap" with an initial mistrust.

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
Anna
Anna Oct 2 '18
DL, what are you going on about? I'm not against confrontation per se. Sometimes, it is inevitable. At other times, it's simply a better option than obedience. The crux of the matter is how you do it. I mean unless you live in a jungle or shitty ghetto, where the law of the fist prevails, or using your example, you're just a kid in junior high school, staying calm but firm during the confrontation is advisable. That is if you want to win the game.

I wonder how you solve conflicts in your life. Do you really go about your business constantly yelling at other people and punching them in the face? Or do you rather employ smarter methods to get your way?

Also I'm not talking about not reacting. Everything is a reaction but what matters is how you react. Not giving in to the provocative bullshit is not the same as turning the other cheek.
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
Who is DL? 


I wonder how you solve conflicts in your life. Do you really go about your business constantly yelling at other people and punching them in the face? Or do you rather employ smarter methods to get your way?


If it doesn't effect my ability to make money. I will only swallow that need to fight if the opponent can leverage that reaction against me.

Like on [insert rideshare] I will not give someone a reason to get me in trouble, a nice PR face. 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
Anna
Anna Oct 2 '18
Sorry, I meant DE or Canis.

You know, I have this impression about you, maybe I'm wrong, but I really suspect you would love to open the Pandora's box. Perhaps, you've been thinking and dreaming about it for years. But but the thing is... you're like that bitch of a timid virgin who wants a dick in her cunt but is afraid to spread her thighs.

Come on. Do it. Pull the trigger. For better or worse. Make it your swan song.

Or don't. And remain a good boy or girl you've always been.

Decisions. Decisions.
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
You know, I have this impression about you, maybe I'm wrong, but I really suspect you would love to open the Pandora's box. Perhaps, you've been thinking and dreaming about it for years. But but the thing is... you're like that bitch of a timid virgin who wants a dick in her cunt but is afraid to spread her thighs.

Possibly. But speaking of spread thighs.

LOL, pussy (SEX) is never worth opening that box (headache) when you can spend 100 in TJ to fuck an American prostitute stripping in Mexico. Never be in a real "relationship" but the way i look at it it you are GOING TO SPEND THAT 100 dollars anyway...

The manipulation is UP FRONT.  It cuts out the bitch with the manufactured looking platinum twat calling it an example of "purrfection".

At least you know the whore cries away the filth at the end... no bullshit. And there is never drama when you find ways to be a bigger asshole... except everything you cause being an asshole. 
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
Anna
Anna Oct 2 '18
You see... we understand each other  purrfectly.

What if we two met and had a purr over a bowl of milk?

So that you don't have to purr constantly to your sub personality?

I won't bite, promise. You can trust me meow. :-)
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
Well you pass the "No lives matter" test and I thought cats clawed?


Never matter, you're not older than 45 are you? You are not a Jewish (as far as I know), not miscegenated with the "bad" DNA (colored), and from what I remember of the pictures posted you are proportional with no weird dysmorphic conditions...

So as long your family were the guards and not prisoners at Auschwitz we may be able to work something out..  Polish people have very little melanin, which is a definite plus. The accent is workable, and as long as you don't sound like Anastasia's mom. 


I have high standards. 



The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 2 '18
Anna
Anna Oct 3 '18
Cats claw?

Dude, that's paranoia. What came to your head? Have you considered seeing a doctor? You need some meds.
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 3 '18
I am an observer. My observation tells me cats have these retractable knives attached to their cat hands. Like ninjas the are. Swift as a 3AM car stereo acquisition. Get too close at the wrong time and out they come. I SWEAR I have seen at least one do this. 

The traveller Mr. Water Sign (pieces probably) didn't believe cat claws were dangerous. He was smug in this regard. As he ascended up a cliff face a mountain lion severed his tether and he fell to the cold ground below and then died for his oversight. Hallowed are those who seek the path to true enlightenment.
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 3 '18
Anna
Anna Oct 3 '18
Hahaha!
That was great. You deserve five stars for that. Ten even!

Oops. That reads like positive reinforcement. Watch out lol.

Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Oct 3 '18
No, you saved it with satirical inflection.  By making a direct criticism you are actually doing what is commonly called "giving me shit". It is not a compliment as much as it is a salient example of "playful criticism" as would be exhibited in the average familiar social environment when someone takes an absurd position. 
The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Oct 3 '18
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