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Are people a herd animal or are they naturally individuals? | Forum

Icecold99
Icecold99 Jun 22 '16
I was just talking with someone and they said that people are a herd animal.  Is this the logic of conformity?  I think people are civilized and domesticated to be herd animals.  Sometimes I think the United States is a Christian culture, even though the government is meant to be secular.  In their natural form I think there is a ying and a yang where people are individuals and at the same time compatible with groups of like minded individuals. 
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MisterOwl
MisterOwl Jun 22 '16

Humans are primates and primates are social animals which typically rely on a troop or family of some sort to survive. That said, primates often strike out on their own at some point. What often ends up happening is the individual will at some point start a family/troop of their own or join another... whether it be settling down and having kids, joining a street gang or whatever.


These days, one could make the argument that we do not need a group to survive, but the fact is, there are very few modern humans who could actually survive isolated from society.


I would not, however, consider humans a herd animal as herds play a game of follow the leader blindly, whereas humans usually will play a specific role in the group they are in.


Having the brain and consciousness that we do allows us to possess individuality even within our groups. Sure, we may get group identifying marks (such as gang tattoos or teenagers' clothing) but it in no way takes away our individuality.

ManxLoaghtan Member
ManxLoaghtan Jun 23 '16
I think we would be able to live in small groups of our own family members more happily than in large social groups. Like many other primate troops. It seems that with development and growth of our populations the construct of our social structure has become to much too handle and thus we now walk about and live with an ability to ignore and deny most rules and methodical order that would have been the basis of any smaller group. I do not know if it is the "logic of conformity", more a logical way of survival in mass groups... would we be less civilized without living so closely?  I doubt it. Possibly more civilised. 
ShadowLover Member
ShadowLover Jun 23 '16
Humans are social creatures and are prone to forming clusters. They are not naturally all equal though as in nature there is always a clear ranking within a cluster. People tend to enjoy the social connections, yet will still strive for supremacy within their group. There will always be a few who will influence the behaviour of the herd beneath them.
Hartnell
Hartnell Jul 1 '16
@icecold: I agree with you. We're both. 
VenusSatanas
VenusSatanas Oct 31 '16
There was a study done that showed that people actually become more stupid when they rely on a group to make decisions. People who are loners are generally more intelligent, having the ability to think for themselves and not being swayed by others around them. of course the price for this lonerism is being labeled as an outcast, and being mistrusted. good for those who are able to walk freely between both worlds! :D
The Satanist
The Satanist Nov 1 '16
That is Correct, Venus Satanas. 


Humans (Primitive Intelligence) they need someone to tell them to do something, and etc. I do things on my own, and if I cannot solve a problem, I rethink another solution to the problem, and solve it. Instead, sometimes I have to work with people, who are super intelligent, and they can be so slow, and negative, and also annoying. Meaning, they argue over evidence, but then its a theory, they praise it. Unreal..basically a fucked up world, and bleak future of mankind. This Mars Project, is a waste of damn time, we are not even psychology fit, to even live in other world. I just putting on a bet which one of those people on Mars, cracks, and becomes a serial killer. LOL

ol' grimey
ol' grimey Dec 20 '16
As a loner, I would have to agree with Venus on what she said in regards to loners. My intelligence even leaves me baffled at what I see as a level of dim wittedness in those very types of people alluded to in the title of this thread. In fact, I would have to second that motion that herd types of people who rely on public opinion and on the more personal opinions of their friends, family, tribe, or what have you in my observation tend to be more than a little slack in the intellect and standing on your own authority departments.
ol' grimey
ol' grimey Dec 25 '16

Quote from FraterLuciferi People who claims to be 100% independent are liars or delusional because we need relations to learn about ourself. Of course gods or mythological beings can also teach us about ourself and human relations but it starts out with being inspired by others. Human is a social beast and superior people have no need to tell others they are superior. 

No, not every one needs dependency on others, or what I've always called a desperate need for attention and affection. I say this because I never wanted anyone in my life, nor have I ever needed any one in my life. Surely, I am not the only person who is for all intent and purpose "self contained"? For as long as I can remember and that memory goes back to at least seven years old, I have never had a desire to draw close to any one in any type of relations, familial or otherwise. So no, not all humans are social creatures. However, I agree that we can learn about ourselves from the feed back of others, but relations beyond acquaintances and interactions during daily living isn't necessary.



The Forum post is edited by ol' grimey Dec 25 '16
nith
nith Dec 28 '16

As basic as this idea of the herd animal is, it is often broken into areas to study. Sweeping statements in an area like this would be a sign of laziness or worse.


VenusSatanas, you opening line was close but there has not been “a study” but thousands. For FraterLuciferi's question about trust in an investigation I would say to question all and run your own trials. Some trials are as simple as being aware and watching how people act and react.


I was going to add some links but then thought I would lay a trail of crumbs and see where it takes you. Starting with a simple google or youtube search using “Asch's Conformity” or “The Bystander Effect” and see where you end up.


This is one of those topics that black and white rated opinions lead to falsehoods. Factors depend on the person and their state of mind as well as social values. Some follow blindly on any issue in their comfort zone where others may do something to test it's value. Other people may flatly dismiss an issue but if only one issue is looked at then only the reactions and actions based on that that issue can be stated.


In other words, its all different values and depends on the topic. Yes some herd together just to be with someone in a codependent state and it matters little what the group thought is. Other times it is all about the topic.


Isn't this site a place where at least some people gather and exchange ideas. The words herd and group are often a semantic playground based on point of view.

AntiX Chapter Head
AntiX Dec 29 '16
nith, very well worded by the way.   I wish I could add more to that, but you got it down well, a very good response btw ;)
nith
nith Jan 4 '17

I found the Dede vs Fraterluciferi conversation rather interesting and was a little bit let down. I was looking forward to find out how judging a book by its cover (in the intelligence/ independent idea) was only a problem if male.


The other topic I found interesting was weakness and the value of keeping it hidden or showing it.

nith
nith Jan 5 '17

Sexism seems to be a common hurdle and way to derail actual though.


I would still like to read why judging a book by it's cover was only a male issue. Also the topic of showing weakness being the wrong thing to do seems lacking when the use of tactics is involved.


I find showing what some think as weakness can actually be beneficial. Often when someone is shown what they think is a weakness they then make other assumptions based on that.


These assumptions can be fun to play with.


Example;

The less I care the more polite I can be.

The more polite I am, the more people think I care.

The Forum post is edited by nith Jan 5 '17
ol' grimey
ol' grimey Jan 6 '17

Quote from FraterLuciferi
Quote from nith
It's nothing more than bullshit that proves the fact that Islamists and Feminists are ignorant moronic people who are a waste of time to argue with. 
They can be summed up in two words, Useful. Idiots.~ Useful idiots.
The Forum post is edited by ol' grimey Jan 6 '17
Chaos Order
Chaos Order Jan 6 '17

Quote from FraterLuciferi
Quote from nith

Sexism seems to be a common hurdle and way to derail actual though.



The term "sexism" has developed in the same way as "racism". If you oppose Islam then you are a "racist" and if you oppose feminism then you are a "sexist". It's nothing more than ignorant bullshit that proves the fact that Islamists and Feminists are ignorant fools who refuse to face reality as it is.
As far as feminism is an ideology that only exists to oppose sexism, if you oppose feminism, you are against being against sexism, which makes you a sexist. And also your speech is openly sexist as far as you say women and men are sort of a complementary binary thing (weak opposed to strong and so) instead of what they are (unique individuals with weaknesses and potentials regardless of gender). You can be and say whatever you want, of course, but if you talk sexist speech don't blame others for pointing things out.

Opposing to Islam, on the other hand, is not racism as far as Islam is a religion, not a race, so, yeah, it's idiotic to call racist to those who are against Islam.
nith
nith Jan 6 '17

Even after pointing out that the mention of sexism derails many topics Frater is still caught up on that hurdle?


If you want to open a sexist, raciest or any other “ist” or “ism” it would be better to have them in a forum of their own. Normally the progression of a thread should have some basic link to the reason the thread was made (ie; stray on topic).


As for my views on sex, race or religion,,,

I don't care what the bottle is made of if it's only filled with piss and hot air.

nith
nith Jan 7 '17

Come on Frater, your not going to back down because of a couple of words you didn't like are you? I also think if this topic got back on the herd animal line it could go far.


In fact I thought it would be fun to discuss using herd mentality as a camouflage to go unseen in general. Using the base idea that many people think if you do things similar to them and don't argue then they assume you agree with them or even on their side. <This is always fun>


How about what group you would be part of and how far would you go to stay in said group?

Chaos Order
Chaos Order Jan 7 '17

Quote from FraterLuciferi
Quote from Chaos Order
As far as feminism is an ideology that only exists to oppose sexism, if you oppose feminism, you are against being against sexism, which makes you a sexist. And also your speech is openly sexist as far as you say women and men are sort of a complementary binary thing (weak opposed to strong and so) instead of what they are (unique individuals with weaknesses and potentials regardless of gender). You can be and say whatever you want, of course, but if you talk sexist speech don't blame others for pointing things out.

You are completely wrong and if you support feminism then you support the cause of sexism against women because nature has shaped men and women differently. 


Quote from Chaos Order 
Opposing to Islam, on the other hand, is not racism as far as Islam is a religion, not a race, so, yeah, it's idiotic to call racist to those who are against Islam.

Not by your logic...

I don't really support anything as far as I believe that ideologies are cages, I just understand the feminist point because I've been between the extreme left people a lot and I've taken part in lots of debates about the topic. Maybe I misunderstood yours since I was a bit high when I commented (sorry :P). So... you say that women and men are shaped different by nature, which is, obviously, true if you only look at the biological aspect. We're biologically binary after all. But... do you also think that women's mind and men's mind are different because of gender? You spoke about social roles (men can't show weakness, women can...) but, what's behind those roles for you? is it nature too? 

And, to not be told I'm misleading the thread, I gotta add that, for me, feminists are trying to say "we're not herd animals, we're individuals", like "we won't do what society tells us women must do, we are all different ¡ndividuals, we have freewill, let us be what we want". 

nith
nith Jan 7 '17

@Debe I think the point should be to keep in mind how and why I do things and how deeply I camouflage, and for how long. The longest I have blended in would be 24months and then I felt I needed a break to reassess myself and what I got out of it. Also it can mess with your mind if your not clear on your goals and who you are before hand.


As for being a hypocrite I would say no one is free from that sin. Who has not done something they tell others is wrong. The same as using the truth, timing is everything.


@Chaos Order, Do you find it amusing with groups like the feminist movement that they words like “we” and “us” to express individuals? They try and make it sound like they speak for all females yet if one of those females wants to be something different they turn on them. I guess that is more pack mentality than herd though.


It is like the anarchy group that had a list of rules.

Chaos Order
Chaos Order Jan 7 '17


@Chaos Order, Do you find it amusing with groups like the feminist movement that they words like “we” and “us” to express individuals? They try and make it sound like they speak for all females yet if one of those females wants to be something different they turn on them. I guess that is more pack mentality than herd though.


It is like the anarchy group that had a list of rules.

Yes, it's hilarious when leaders speak in the name of people who are not following them at all. Happens a lot in politics... like when the president says "This country needs this-random-thing!" and you think "Dude... then I don't belong to this country".

Even with this attitude, I still think that feminism is about individuals, because that's how the feminism I know works. There are currents, like in everything, and I've been closer to the anarchist feminism, with no leaders and special care about individuals, about different views and thoughts and about respecting the freedom of choice. It has lots of weaknesses too, but, well...  "feminism" is not the topic. Let's move on.

I gotta confess that I don't really get the difference between "pack mentality" and "being herd animals" (I'm spanish, there's a laguage barrier here). I assumed we're talking about individuals vs sheep-minded.
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