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The Lucifer Effect | Forum

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Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
One of my academic mentors was in turn a mentee of Philip Zimbardo at Stanford.  In my biology degree, we read the Lucifer Effect and Stanford Prison Experiments so much it may as well be Bible verses.  What fascinates me is humanity's capacity for evil, ethics in experimental design, and if you think the guards and inmates would behave differently if they were of different socioeconomic status, educational levels, age, and gender.  I often wonder how humanity can do evil - my grandmother was in Hitler Youth at an age too young to understand me, and blindness and conformity go a long way to justifying atrocity in the average eye.  My professor argues that Zimbardo was in the right, and unlike the Tuskegee Medical Experiments, per se, or fucking Pavlov, built a whole fruitful career on a single experiment.  Regardless, reams of paper have been written on the Lucifer Effect, but I call bull.  I think the experimental standards were forced and that bystander effect and confirmation bias played the biggest effects.  Regardless, it raises the question: is humanity inherently evil, or simply animal?


I would argue both evil and animalistic.

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AK
AK Sep 3 '18

Quote from ObscuraRegardless, it raises the question: is humanity inherently evil, or simply animal?

They are synonyms. That's the whole "thing".


For example. Some girl. Alice, we'll call her, has these grand ideas about, say, getting linked in holy matrimony. Having morals and whatever. She meets this guy named, say, Jason or whatever - swears up and down it'll never happen. She's loyal and faithful! 


I promise you biology will prove otherwise. 


You put bodies in places of opportunity, you'd be silly not to predict what occurs. It's just how it goes. 





Everybody needs somebody to abuse

Everybody needs a lotta stuff to eat

Everybody gonna be a body one day

Having fun? (mortal scum)

Rest assured it's not for long

When you least expect your world reels

You fall to the ground

Will heaven protect it?

(No) A strange new world that you found

And now, bodies waken

Soul a-quakin', you see your jellied corpse a-bakin'

Your world teeters on the brink of madness

We shall kick that bitch over with gladness

You enter the sex plague

You cannot breed

And you await death

Your anus bleeds

When you're all dead

We'll still be here

Having butt sex

Cause I'm so queer!

Disciples of sin!

The Forum post is edited by AK Sep 3 '18
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
But I counterpoint: we are closest to bonobos genetically, not chimpanzees.  A matriarchal peaceful society that fucks its problems away and lives in a resource rich utopia.  I think "animal nature' can include altruism, in fact, humans are inherently altruistic.  Yet they are also inherently ignorant.  See Kitty Genovese.  I don't buy the whole "animal nature is evil," instead I would buy "animal nature is self-serving."  The bonobo fucks away its sorrows because there are no monogamous or heterosexual expectations, in fact, incest is common.  Now are we more like the bonobo, as scientists assert we would be in a limitless resource paradise, or does the chimpanzee nature come out because of the Tragedy of the Commons, AK 47?  If I show up at your door with an AK 47 asking for a banana, you will be terrified into giving one and probably call the police.  If I show up as your neighbor asking for sugar, you will give it to me because you are altruistic.  Now, altruism as a whole is self-serving as fuck, people want to feel moral and holier than thou and like they are contributing to society, and don't get me started on mirror neurons!  But people would argue altruism is our default and that is not inherently evil.  Moreover, I don't believe in evil.  The wolf eats the deer because it is fucking hungry.  If I'm a chimera, I absorb my twin in the womb not out of genocide, but because there isn't enough space in my mother's uterus.  I do believe in the inherent concept of our animal nature, I don't believe in spiritual shit, not really, as the only thing waiting for us are dirt and worms.  There is no such fucking thing as good and evil, just human nature.  Which is why the Lucifer Effect is flawed. The Yanamamo might seem primitive to us, but to the Yanamamo, we desecrate the realm of the gods by flying planes.  Evil only exists as long as there are humans to define it, and good is just as evil as well, evil, or evil is as good as good.  Same thing at the end of the day.  Bonobos are chimpanzees that inbred.  It all comes down to animal nature, instinct, and DNA.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
Also Jason sounds desperate. 
AK
AK Sep 3 '18
I don't think it matters what we're closest to. It matters what we are.


I think if a species were close enough to us as to resemble us, we would have eradicated them. This is why racism is actually not a bad thing. It's what you're supposed to do. Eliminate the competition because it's not as if this planet is making any more land. 


These bonobos and chimps exist today simply because they're different enough from us as to not be comparable. 


I wouldn't use the word altruism, but sure! We are helpful and respectful and beneficent. We're not cartoons or robots or whatever. We have axis' of motion.


Funny story: I live in a neighborhood where it's an everyday occurrence that someone, be it a neighbor or a heroine addict, asks me for something every day. My responses range from "sure, I have a dollar" to actually stabbing people (non-lethally - it takes a lot of work to actually stab someone to actual death) there is nothing wrong with this, either. There's just no sure test. It depends on how I feel about the scenario. Maybe I give you a few coins, maybe I end up having to go for a jog - and everything in between. Flip side: a few months ago when I came off a severe stint of drinking almost suicidal amounts of liquor, it was these people I asked for the clozapine I knew I needed to ensure I wouldn't have a seizure alone in my apartment. They came through, they looked out for me, even knocked on my door just to see if I was ok and in a way I owe my life to these quote-unquote scum bags. There's a lot of that, too. (and no! I don't call the police. Not ever. You mad woman.)


I don't think that's altrusim, though - it has more to do with familiarity and such.


What I'm getting at is that the thing that is called evil points to that which is animalistic inside of us. Oh sure, make all the monogamous commitments on paper you like___ your loins tell you otherwise. And sure! say that you will look after your captives dutifully and without abuse___ your self-assertion will have an altogether different conversation with you as pertains to that matter sooner or later. 


You will beat them and you will like it.

The Forum post is edited by AK Sep 3 '18
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
"You will beat them and you will like it."


I wholeheartedly agree!  Yes, we are tribal by nature.  As Ford says in Westworld (check it out AK, much better people than us have imagined Satan's fall and humanity's ascent - or descent, take your pick) "Do you know what happened to the Neanderthals? We ate them."  Fucked out of existence, to be sure, and murdered, but it is a matter of semantics and how you frame the narrative.  Evil is a narrative, the violence and altruism you mention are all narratives, how we frame our neighbors and other races and enemies.  We can believe in liberal SJW bullshit that are "race-blind" and crippled by priviledge, or we can be the alt-right idiots that think every white person is equal and would give every other white person the time of day.  White does not equal black does not equal gray.  Sure, fucking is maybe a constant, and death, but injustice (not that any justice is real) is the only guarantee we have.  As a biologist and ecologist, I say, what we are closest to matters.  It tells us what we would be like if we had not eaten the apple, or meat in this case, gotten fire, developed wet earwax, and become bipedal.  Chimpanzees and bonobos are still in Eden, as it were, if Gan Eden is nature and the serpent was just another lunchtime snack.  I may give the shirt off my back for my friend, but if you're a stranger and annoy me on the Metro, or are another man trying to get in my pants and also make me your therapist, I'll either ignore you as a Washingtonian would or tell you to fuck off.  "No," is maybe the beginning of true evil.  "Yes," is also.  Free will is bullshit, but so is fate.  It's all a choice of perspective.

AK
AK Sep 3 '18
But I am another man trying to get into your pants.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
And you will fail like all the rest, AK 47, Sammaelwich or not. :) :) :)
AK
AK Sep 3 '18
Not for lack of effort! :D 
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
At least you are honest about it!  I get retards messaging me at all hours with nervous breakdowns and begging for dates and me to join them in Ecuador.  I much prefer bluntness then "Allie what do I do for my piddling future also why are you so pretty?"
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
That is the fun, my love.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
You get something more intimate than pussy, Satan.


My eternal soul.


And some scrambled eggs.

Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
Sunny side up, AK 47


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1oM3kQpXRo

AK
AK Sep 3 '18
Give me their numbers. This'll be hilarious, I swear.


...


also, olive juice, my Eve.

Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
I will!  In fact, I will let you troll the everloving shit out of them!  


Stop mentioning my favorite lube in all your posts!  Athena's gift to the catamites and dolomites.


Also way to derail my post. :/

AK
AK Sep 3 '18
Whatever. Come cuddle me.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
You come cuddle me!  QUAK
AK
AK Sep 3 '18
It's too hot and I don't want to move. You know who my mistress is right now? This rotating fan. That's who! She rotates dutifully, cooling my skin, whispering sweet nothings ad-infinitum. I am actually in love with this particular object right now. Jealous?
The Forum post is edited by AK Sep 3 '18
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
Isn't it always hot in Hell?
AK
AK Sep 3 '18
Reportedly. It's hotter here :|
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