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The Lucifer Effect | Forum

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Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
One of my academic mentors was in turn a mentee of Philip Zimbardo at Stanford.  In my biology degree, we read the Lucifer Effect and Stanford Prison Experiments so much it may as well be Bible verses.  What fascinates me is humanity's capacity for evil, ethics in experimental design, and if you think the guards and inmates would behave differently if they were of different socioeconomic status, educational levels, age, and gender.  I often wonder how humanity can do evil - my grandmother was in Hitler Youth at an age too young to understand me, and blindness and conformity go a long way to justifying atrocity in the average eye.  My professor argues that Zimbardo was in the right, and unlike the Tuskegee Medical Experiments, per se, or fucking Pavlov, built a whole fruitful career on a single experiment.  Regardless, reams of paper have been written on the Lucifer Effect, but I call bull.  I think the experimental standards were forced and that bystander effect and confirmation bias played the biggest effects.  Regardless, it raises the question: is humanity inherently evil, or simply animal?


I would argue both evil and animalistic.

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Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
But I counterpoint: we are closest to bonobos genetically, not chimpanzees.  A matriarchal peaceful society that fucks its problems away and lives in a resource rich utopia.  I think "animal nature' can include altruism, in fact, humans are inherently altruistic.  Yet they are also inherently ignorant.  See Kitty Genovese.  I don't buy the whole "animal nature is evil," instead I would buy "animal nature is self-serving."  The bonobo fucks away its sorrows because there are no monogamous or heterosexual expectations, in fact, incest is common.  Now are we more like the bonobo, as scientists assert we would be in a limitless resource paradise, or does the chimpanzee nature come out because of the Tragedy of the Commons, AK 47?  If I show up at your door with an AK 47 asking for a banana, you will be terrified into giving one and probably call the police.  If I show up as your neighbor asking for sugar, you will give it to me because you are altruistic.  Now, altruism as a whole is self-serving as fuck, people want to feel moral and holier than thou and like they are contributing to society, and don't get me started on mirror neurons!  But people would argue altruism is our default and that is not inherently evil.  Moreover, I don't believe in evil.  The wolf eats the deer because it is fucking hungry.  If I'm a chimera, I absorb my twin in the womb not out of genocide, but because there isn't enough space in my mother's uterus.  I do believe in the inherent concept of our animal nature, I don't believe in spiritual shit, not really, as the only thing waiting for us are dirt and worms.  There is no such fucking thing as good and evil, just human nature.  Which is why the Lucifer Effect is flawed. The Yanamamo might seem primitive to us, but to the Yanamamo, we desecrate the realm of the gods by flying planes.  Evil only exists as long as there are humans to define it, and good is just as evil as well, evil, or evil is as good as good.  Same thing at the end of the day.  Bonobos are chimpanzees that inbred.  It all comes down to animal nature, instinct, and DNA.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
Also Jason sounds desperate. 
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
"You will beat them and you will like it."


I wholeheartedly agree!  Yes, we are tribal by nature.  As Ford says in Westworld (check it out AK, much better people than us have imagined Satan's fall and humanity's ascent - or descent, take your pick) "Do you know what happened to the Neanderthals? We ate them."  Fucked out of existence, to be sure, and murdered, but it is a matter of semantics and how you frame the narrative.  Evil is a narrative, the violence and altruism you mention are all narratives, how we frame our neighbors and other races and enemies.  We can believe in liberal SJW bullshit that are "race-blind" and crippled by priviledge, or we can be the alt-right idiots that think every white person is equal and would give every other white person the time of day.  White does not equal black does not equal gray.  Sure, fucking is maybe a constant, and death, but injustice (not that any justice is real) is the only guarantee we have.  As a biologist and ecologist, I say, what we are closest to matters.  It tells us what we would be like if we had not eaten the apple, or meat in this case, gotten fire, developed wet earwax, and become bipedal.  Chimpanzees and bonobos are still in Eden, as it were, if Gan Eden is nature and the serpent was just another lunchtime snack.  I may give the shirt off my back for my friend, but if you're a stranger and annoy me on the Metro, or are another man trying to get in my pants and also make me your therapist, I'll either ignore you as a Washingtonian would or tell you to fuck off.  "No," is maybe the beginning of true evil.  "Yes," is also.  Free will is bullshit, but so is fate.  It's all a choice of perspective.

Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
And you will fail like all the rest, AK 47, Sammaelwich or not. :) :) :)
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
At least you are honest about it!  I get retards messaging me at all hours with nervous breakdowns and begging for dates and me to join them in Ecuador.  I much prefer bluntness then "Allie what do I do for my piddling future also why are you so pretty?"
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
That is the fun, my love.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
You get something more intimate than pussy, Satan.


My eternal soul.


And some scrambled eggs.

Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
Sunny side up, AK 47


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1oM3kQpXRo

Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
I will!  In fact, I will let you troll the everloving shit out of them!  


Stop mentioning my favorite lube in all your posts!  Athena's gift to the catamites and dolomites.


Also way to derail my post. :/

Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
You come cuddle me!  QUAK
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
Isn't it always hot in Hell?
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
I actually find Hell to be rather temperate in climate.  I much prefer Pandemonium to D.C. in September.  At least Hell is fun and not full of Republicans, or is it?
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
You would keep it that way, but beware Flamin' Aym.  Aym has a tendency to light all your progress on fire, and I have heard he is the firebrand of Hell.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
Oh man that sucks!  I'm always anal retentive of my friends smoking in national parks, due to family reasons.  I hate fire.  So much.
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
OK AK
Obscura TITS
Obscura Sep 3 '18
I need them too :/  I forgot to get a pedicure today.  Demon talons.  At least I don't have fangs like you.
Newjlo
Newjlo Jan 1
The book "Bonobo and the Atheist" argues instead that humans are naturally moral. 


I think the truth is somewhere between: some people have stronger tendencies for cooperation, others stronger tendencies for non-cooperation, but these tend to pay a price (exclusion, incarceration, etc.) and so have been slowly bred out for the most part through evolution.


Also, one would need to define "evil". Protecting one's own may be either arbitrary or virtuous, depending on the circumstances. Many of our instincts and drive may "misfire" at times, but they emerged because these genes were rendering SOME service to our survival.

Anna
Anna Jan 1
What I find most fascinating about the Stanford Prison Experiment is the fact that its participants were so mindfucked by it that they forgot it was an experiment. Somehow this obvious thought that nobody kept them there by force and that they were at liberty to leave at any time didn't occur to them.
Dark Enlightenment

Quote from Newjlo The book "Bonobo and the Atheist" argues instead that humans are naturally moral. 


I think the truth is somewhere between: some people have stronger tendencies for cooperation, others stronger tendencies for non-cooperation, but these tend to pay a price (exclusion, incarceration, etc.) and so have been slowly bred out for the most part through evolution.


Also, one would need to define "evil". Protecting one's own may be either arbitrary or virtuous, depending on the circumstances. Many of our instincts and drive may "misfire" at times, but they emerged because these genes were rendering SOME service to our survival.

To that innate morality argument, cooperation and respect can only be ostensibly moral. 


I doubt the beta males are waiting for the alphas to eat because that is what lion jesus says.  They wait because they are less significant.  Disrupting the pecking order is disrupting the larger group.  All morals are based on recreating social casting on a scale too large to regulate without doctrine.  


In a monetized society, where the social strata is based on assets and accomplishment, cooperation (obeying legal and/or moral code) is a way to keep the lucifer principle enforced by a figurative eye of providence.  

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jan 1
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