Satanism is occultist | Forum

talisman
talisman Jun 26 '21
Well, satanism is occultist by their origin, occultism is blasphemy, thus making a point. 
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Cornelius Coburn
Cornelius Coburn Jun 26 '21
I'd say that the 'occult' is more about the study of that which is 'hidden' or concealed to the exoteric, which may 'include' the "supernatural", but not exclusively.


Edit : Tom Riddle deleted prior post in which it was stated the occult as exclusively supernatural.

The Forum post is edited by Cornelius Coburn Jun 27 '21
Cornelius Coburn
Cornelius Coburn Jun 26 '21
An occultist may harvest and use entheogens which are totally 'natural' in which the mundanes might label as 'poisonous', for instance, because their esoteric use is hidden to many.


Edit : typo

The Forum post is edited by Cornelius Coburn Jun 26 '21
Cornelius Coburn
Cornelius Coburn Jun 26 '21
Of course some entheogens can be deadly also if not used properly.
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Jun 26 '21

Quote from talisman Well, satanism is occultist by their origin, occultism is blasphemy, thus making a point. 
Prayer should be blasphemy too then.  


All that spiritual shit only taps that mundane need to believe. Occult in the context you speak of is all supernatural candle chanting in one form or another. What difference is there in a black candle and a Lady Guadalupe candle? A printed label and wax color, everything else slides over as a like form of attainment.  Narratives of magical causal forces helping you along the way. 


And is something really "hidden" if it uses the same old faith every one else does? 


Most in the world can light that candle and feel they've done something. This is the essence of RHP attainment. The ability to defer to matters of faith in fucked situations.

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 26 '21
Wolfie
Wolfie Jun 26 '21
talisman started a thread. It probably pisses him off that he can't delete the OP.


Meanwhile...


Satan represents modern atavistic misanthropy.


Specifically the modern principles of rationality, science, materialism, and atheism; the atavistic principles of carnality, appetite, passion, and cathartic ritual; and the misanthropic principles of cynicism, desecration, iconoclasty, and dissidence: Satan's Twelve Apostles.

 

The Forum post is edited by Wolfie Jun 27 '21
Cornelius Coburn
Cornelius Coburn Jun 26 '21

I would have posted this sooner if that highlight box hadn't kept trapping the cursor. It hadn't been a problem for a while so I had forgotten about it.

Quote from Dark Enlightenmentr. What difference is there in a black candle and a Lady Guadalupe candle?

Well as tenuous as these forces may appear to be, one difference would be in the rebounding light energy. The perceived color being only an illusion created by the physical properties of the objects with which these energies interact determined by the resulting frequencies of course. So this effects ambient energy in a transparent manner, and yes it is one very subtle effect that is overlooked/ignored by many.

Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Jun 26 '21

Where gratifying attainment is concerned is there any difference between the dark force wielding high priest and the light of god wielding pastor? 


Let's toss out everyone using ritual "psychodrama" as a punching bag (like putting someones face on a punching bag) or ritualistic introspective meditation to feel better and focus on the superstitious aspects alone. For those "who don't doubt the power of magic" explicitly. 


Is the magician lighting a black candle and invoking [Insert demon] any different in approach than the Santera lighting a Wal-Mart candle invoking [Insert orisha].  


I feel it's a madlib of like for like with RHP abstraction. 



The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 26 '21
MatthewJ1
MatthewJ1 Jun 26 '21

Talisman: Well, satanism is occultist by their origin, occultism is blasphemy, thus making a point. 

 

There seems to be a problem here, in my view. I’ll try to articulate it: if you don’t anchor Satanism in some sort of objective way then it seems you fall into a sort of relativism, perspectivism and historicism.

 

I remember watching a cool DVD years ago called ‘The History of the Devil’ or something like that, and what was interesting in that documentary was the way the meaning of Satan was transformed over the course of the centuries as a result of changing values and truth claims, etc.

 

It seemed to me that the referent attached to this signifier “Satan” gradually changed or rather became more and more contested, and then later the referent itself seemed to just vanish and the physical form of the sign and the concept just seemed to slide all over the place. You only have to spend some time in the online satanic community to see the preceding points illustrated.

 

It seems to me that the contest around interpretation and description and ontological status was an example of will to power in action, and hence a sure indication that “Satan” was there all along in the background in an objective way.

 

There are obviously a set of images and symbols, which are associated with Satan and which are rooted in forms of occultism or rather occult discourse. Those images and symbols can be useful. The signifier Satan definitely implies an occult worldview if one goes back to the pristine origin when this signifier first appeared. It definitely implies an occult viewpoint right now as far as I’m concerned.

 

Satan is always there - in the background - as each partisan fights to establish who “He” is and what “he” is all about…

 

 

Wolfie
Wolfie Jun 27 '21
If occultism is doing ritual to change reality, then the question is: which reality, objective or subjective, and precisely how, directly or indirectly?


Cathartic ritual changes subjective reality directly so as to instigate new styles of action and, through the indirect means of letting these actions run their course, change objective reality.


You categorically cannot do a ritual to directly change the objective reality of some lumbering imbecile bullying you. However, you are entirely capable of doing a ritual to instigate within yourself the growth of a pair of balls (metaphorically speaking) which will then clear a psychological path for you to shout "Damn the torpedoes!" and launch yourself into the unsuspecting person of Captain Moron and pummel him mercilessly, which may, even if you lose the fight, nevertheless induce Billy Bob Blockhead to leave you alone henceforth.

 

Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Jun 27 '21

Quote from Wolfie

You categorically cannot do a ritual to directly change the objective reality of some lumbering imbecile bullying you. However, you are entirely capable of doing a ritual to instigate within yourself the growth of a pair of balls (metaphorically speaking) which will then clear a psychological path for you to shout "Damn the torpedoes!" and launch yourself into the unsuspecting person of Captain Moron and pummel him mercilessly, which may, even if you lose the fight, nevertheless induce Billy Bob Blockhead to leave you alone henceforth.

 

I would like to take this excellent point and highlight something. 


The above deals exclusively in the phenomenal.  Even the cathartic ritual serves a direct purpose within the mind of the individual. There is no reliance on "the power of magic" at all.  


Humorously, it's what the Danish kid said over and over, the Satanist recognizes the ritual as only capable of effecting their own mental state. Other "ritual" activities include; yoga, meditation, martial arts, zen gardens, painting, breaking shit, and exercise.  


What qualifies itself as cathartic is a broad stroke across several avenues of catharsis. 


What remains is the lack epistomological frailty. There is no reliance on an unknown causal mechanism.  


This speaks to the preference of the individual Satanist to need to see the results and mechanism of their self-deliverance from whatever adversity they face. The Satanist will not derive satisfaction from thinking "magic" will take care of the lumbering bully, but will derive satisfaction from self-defense training and kicking the motherfucking shit out of him directly. 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 27 '21
beware
beware Jun 28 '21
This right here shows that you have no concept of magic at all, for magic may be defined as purposeful action derived from the will, or any action taken purposefully so as to reach a desired outcome. 
Quote from Dark EnlightenmentThere is no reliance on "the power of magic" at all.  
Wolfie
Wolfie Jun 28 '21
By your definition, beware, taking a piss is magic. 

 

I do have to admit that when the wait has been long, and the opportunity has finally presented itself, the glorious act of voiding one's bladder can feel magical, and even religious, as one might be forgiven for blurting out, "Thank God!"


beware
beware Jun 28 '21

Quote from Wolfie By your definition, beware, taking a piss is magic. 

 

I do have to admit that when the wait has been long, and the opportunity has finally presented itself, the glorious act of voiding one's bladder can feel magical, and even religious, as one might be forgiven for blurting out, "Thank God!"


Personally, I get goosebumps when I take a shit. If that's not magic, I don't know what is. 
talisman
talisman Jun 28 '21
Definitely absolutely.  


Wolfie + beware = wanking


You can quote this, in case I delete it.

The Forum post is edited by talisman Jun 28 '21
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Jun 28 '21

Quote from beware This right here shows that you have no concept of magic at all, for magic may be defined as purposeful action derived from the will, or any action taken purposefully so as to reach a desired outcome. 
Quote from Dark EnlightenmentThere is no reliance on "the power of magic" at all.  
What Towel-Wolf said. 


Let's do some madlibs here. 


purposeful action derived from the will, or any action taken purposefully so as to reach a desired outcome. 


So if my will says "get the mail" and I go and get the mail that action is magic. Yeah, "taking a shit" was a better example. 


Are you a fallacybot? 


If you are AI, you have to tell me how your programming prevents the paradox self-destruction reflex. I thought AI can't handle logical paradoxes and experience "invalid operation" errors which cause them to catastrophically malfunction?





The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 28 '21
beware
beware Jun 29 '21

Quote from Dark Enlightenment

Are you a fallacybot? 


If you are AI, you have to tell me how your programming prevents the paradox self-destruction reflex. I thought AI can't handle logical paradoxes and experience "invalid operation" errors which cause them to catastrophically malfunction?





First of all, I'm not the AI, as far as you should know. I'm the person. I think? Anyways. Read the name. Artificial Intelligence. The Intelligence is Artificial. What makes you think it can perform logical operations? Never understood why people think a Paradox could defeat a machine. Paradoxes don't really exist to a machine, because a machine does not know human logic. In a way, the whole issue is side stepped simply because paradoxes are a human centric problem to begin with. 
Cornelius Coburn
Cornelius Coburn Jun 29 '21
Quote from Dark Enlightenment

Is the magician lighting a black candle and invoking [Insert demon] any different in approach than the Santera lighting a Wal-Mart candle invoking [Insert orisha].


Well I suppose for one, a (true) black candle doesn't emit any frequencies. Now with a typical occult ritual there may be numerous hidden forces and the like at play with "intent" being a key player for some and with me as I've said before with altered states being paramount. Now I can't state unequivocally that there is any effect one way or the other, and as previously stated these forces seemingly tenuous in their ways and performing an illusory function which may be in fact their sole purpose, aside from other, perhaps more 'occult' ways in which they may mingle and coalesce.


I don't bother with this sort of 'ritual' thing anymore really, at least not in a traditional sense but I do notice shortcomings from time to time where certain amendments do seem appropriate even if only for purposes of academia and nothing else.

 

Edit : typo

The Forum post is edited by Cornelius Coburn Jul 1 '21
Dark Enlightenment
Dark Enlightenment Jun 29 '21

Quote from Cornelius Coburn
Well I suppose for one, a (true) black candle doesn't emit any frequencies. Now with a typical occult ritual there may be numerous hidden forces and the like at play with "intent" being a key player for some and with me as I've said before with altered states being paramount. 


Strong questioning begin: 



What are hidden forces and how do they channel intent? Is that like how god hears and answer prayers?  


Where is there room for hidden forces with the inherent uncertainty required in all wave systems?  Can the mind's intent ever effect the uncertain? 


Can you really argue your experience isn't a contunous collapsing wave? 


 In my causal agent life my "experienced wave collapse" (things that happen) are influenced by my positional state. The choices I made, the initial conditions, and the velocity of my trajectory. All this can be known, yet the future location of myself can never be accurately predicted.


You want a TOE? I can get you a TOE! 


Predicting the detrministic future is like predicting the location of a particle. 


I don't think there is room for super magic power to make the wave collapse any specific way. Only ability to change your position to make it more likely to collapse a certain way. 


The only answers around this I have heard involve a god channel, matrix, or unconscious acausal something or other.  That's too abstract and contrived for me.  


I find it easier to remove all determinism instead. Coincidence just needs to be told it's not special. 

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Jun 29 '21
Wolfie
Wolfie Jun 29 '21
CC, here's my take: In altered states, whether drug-induced or otherwise, what I perceive is my own psyche and its evolutionary process. That's why it might make sense for me to talk about the frequencies of colors as having some sort of actual effect. In the psyche, colors and their frequencies do indeed have an effect.


Evolution in the psyche can seem like evolution in objective reality, because in a very real sense, the psyche is all we've ever known and all we ever will.


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