What's in a Name? at Satanic International Network Forum

Anna Sep 9 '19

@Plasmotic Jezebel

What about the evolution of the words and all the nuances of the word is incomprehensible to you? You treat an abstraction as if it were something concrete with a fixed meaning. If someone thinks that Satanism is the worship of Satan including eating babies and strangling cats, I will regard them as idiots because I know that the state of things as they are is different. Hardly any Satanist eats babies or strangles cats and not everyone worships the devil. Sure, specimens like those can happen so consulting a dictionary can help but the definition therein doesn't reflect the reality that is more complex than that you can deduce from the dictionaries written by humans, not by some all-knowing authority.

#21

Anna Sep 9 '19

You all also seem to forget that the original meaning of the word Satanism when it first appeared was simply an accusation made by Christians against other Christians who were supposed to deviate from the one and true doctrine. Hence Satanism was nothing else than heretical teachings. It had nothing to do with devil worship or revering Satan.

#22

Anna Sep 9 '19

I think it has evolved sufficiently to include LaVey's philosophy. At least, in educated circles when you say Satanism, it will be understood that it's not exactly the worship of the devil. Today cultural landscape encompasses also the Satanic groups, among them our beloved TST. Not to mention atheistic groups using Satan and blasphemy as a tool of transgression. You seem to get stuck in the Satanic Panic era. If anyone is a time traveller is you. Boogeyman scary devil worshippers came out of fashion a long time ago. They don't even make new horror movies about them.

#23

Member

Discordia Sep 9 '19

@Anna I generally agree, but ummm

This just came out

Kinda funny to be honest. Not bad for an absolutely stupid comedy slasher flick. And I kinda liked the ending.

#24

Member

Discordia Sep 9 '19

@Plasmo Sadly I have to go earn minor ducats at my day job so I can't really respond in depth until this evening, but it sounds like you're being rather passive and fatalistic about how words evolve. It doesn't "just happen" according to the whims of fashion. People make it happen. The creation of meaning and the evolution of language is an active process, and we all participate even if simply by giving our passive consent to the will of others.

As Anna pointed out, the word is obviously already evolving. These days in liberal LGBT circles if you asked what "Satanism" means, most people might assume it means atheist political activist. That's a new definition, and it didn't "just happen," people are actively making it happen. We can passively consent to that, or we can fight for our own, better definition. You may think that fight isn't worth having, and you are entitled to that opinion. But clearly, I do not agree.

Also regarding this idea that we shouldn't name a thing until after it is fully formed...I want to be careful not to speak for others, but for me at least that is not how my mind or my creative process has ever worked. And I don't think I'm alone in that. Women don't wait until their children are grown to name them; many don't even wait until they are born. Names can be aspirational as much (or often more than) descriptive. Sure the name may change as the thing changes, but without a name the thing...isn't.

#25

Anna Sep 9 '19

Hahaha. This movie must rock. Yeah, apart from few hardcore Christians nobody takes this shit seriously.

I now know why AK/PJ girlfriends think he's a cunt. His conversation with them must look like this:

AK - Honey, I love you.

Girl - Bullshit! You call it love?! This is not love! That's some bullshit!

AK - Well, according to the dictionary what I show you is love. (Reads the definition of love) Now bullshit means something else. Let me read you the definition...

#26

Anna Sep 9 '19

Who's talking about crying or complaining? From the get go the word was meant to provoke. Per LaVey and according to most Satanists, Satanism means the ethos of life that stands in stark contrast to the one advocated by Christianity. It's not like a total reinvention of the word.

Ideas don't have a meaning fixed in stone. That includes every ism, ic and ist as well as all abstract nouns like evil, love, friendship etc. I'm willing to bet your idea of love differs from that of many people. There are many discussions about love just like we've been having this discussion about the meaning of Satanism for years. But somehow you don't see anyone discussing the meaning of a chair, an apple, an elephant or any concrete tangible object. If I showed you an apple, you wouldn't argue it's an elephant. But when I say Satanism, evil, courage, friendship, love, goodness, justice, we can have those semantic discussions for as long as se have time for that and neither of us will be right or wrong.

#27

Member

Discordia Sep 9 '19

@Plasmo you seem quite insistent that there is some better word that would much more clearly convey my meaning, and yet and time I try to pin you down on what you think that word should be you say the thing can't be named yet because it's not defined enough. So which is it?

The Forum post is edited by Discordia Sep 9 '19

#28

Member

Discordia Sep 9 '19

You’re right, I was reading into your words a bit, and looking back at them you never did say there was a better term. You are consistently arguing for simply not naming the thing at all. I’ll concede that point. However I think you have also been reading things into my words that aren’t there. I’m not crying about anything and I certainly don’t want anyone’s pity. Yes I want to provoke people. I thought that was pretty obvious. If you want to tell me that’s a bad idea feel free, but don’t be shocked when I shrug and do it anyway. Or, to put it another way, “Black Philip says I can do what I want!”

#29

Member

Discordia Sep 9 '19

1 - If by "doing the exact same thing TST is" you mean "calling myself whatever I want and being willing to publicly defend doing so," then yes, yes I am.

2 - I never said the receiver of the information was wrong for having preconceived notions. In fact I very intentionally want to harness those preconceived notions, as you already noted. I picked that word because of the various meanings it carries, not in spite of them.

3 - As I said before that's not the main "goal" of my Satanism, it was merely the topic of that particular article. I was trying to respond to the conversations I've been having with people recently, and then (by posting here with the corresponding question) to provoke a discussion with a relatively low barrier to entry here on the forums (because people keep bitching that nobody contributes). If you're bored by it, feel free to drop the topic and bring up a more interesting one.

#30

Member

Discordia Sep 9 '19

So in other words you agree with me, but you can't resist having the last word

#31

Member

Discordia Sep 9 '19

I don't know, "A Satanism that concerns itself inordinately with who is or is not a "true Satanist" is just not something I find very interesting" sounds an awful lot like a less verbose version of:

"Nothing puts me to sleep faster than hearing occultists defend the “purity” of their tradition and tear down the practices of others. How incredibly un-Satanic to feel the need to find some authority who “has all the answers” and follow them. Perhaps doubly so when their credentials are derived more from the age of their ideas than the quality. How cliché to rely on fossilized tomes to tell you how things supposedly were in some golden past where people knew the correct names and the proper rights, and decide that any developments in the interim must clearly be a devolution of the “true” religion. What could be more boring? Is anyone actually enjoying the endless mudslinging over the proper interpretations of dead traditions?"

Also "don’t waste your time trying to define anyone else."

As for WBC, I know nothing about their intentions, but I can't argue with you about their practice.

The Forum post is edited by Discordia Sep 9 '19

#32

Dark Enlightenment Sep 9 '19

Quote from PlasmoticJezebel I'm sure in a lot of ways I agree with you, but not on this particular article.
I don't think the name matters. The essence does.

Don't let the name fool you. WBC is as Satanic as they come.

Let's take this and plaster it all over the place until every prospective satanist first tries to get the magic eye to show a schooner before attempting anything else.

The essence is always there when the argument, "______ are just trying to piss off people that do things they dont like" can be had. The center piece of satanism lay therein, but...

What I have problems with is applying that essence to a group. Because after the WBC, you have Ruby Ridge, Waco, FLDS, Eco warriors, jihadists, skinheads and every other 12 Monkeys like attempted societal subversion.

The actions of smashing social taboo is there but most of the doers are as wired to following, acceptance as reward, and as plastic as anyone else.

The line I like here, and use often is:

"A person is smart, people are dumb panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

In analogy it works.

A person's societal transgression in their establishment of autonomy is satanic, but a groups societal transgression, an effort of like minds, fails to meet criteria of fierce individualism even if its source is.

Take "annoying liberal faggots". On a personal level it is perfectly satanic to be triggered by said annoying liberal faggots, but ones person ironic support of Trump can quickly lead to a false party line of "You must be annoyed by liberal faggots too" rather fucking quickly.

And the once hilarious decision to hock Trump merchandise leads to something approaching a conservative party line that borders on bizarre. I bet if you did a visual mapping of "Things online satanists think" in a spectrum of extremes it would look still like a school of fish. They are like fashion trends and it is fucking hilarious. All of a sudden mustard yellow is in.

Everything gets diluted and deluded after a the initial browncoat reflex.

The Forum post is edited by Dark Enlightenment Sep 9 '19

#33

Anna Sep 9 '19

@PJ

The only person here who initiates all those semantic debates is you. You are the only one who claims the word gets redefined. In reality it isn't redefined. Satan-ism means connection to, expression of the archetype of Satan. Whether it is the literal worship of the devil or just the lifestyle contrary to the Christian one doesn't really matter. It all amounts to embracing the sin, acting as an adversary to God and all that revered and worshipped by the society. The archetype of Satan allows for the variety of interpretations and expressions. That doesn't mean it means anything. What it means is specified by culture, constantly evolving.

Your insistence that abstract nouns have one specific meaning only shows your ignorance. Is throwing acid in a woman's face justice? For many Muslim guys yes. Is capital punishment justice? Debatable. Is killing infidels justice? So what that you have a definition in a dictionary if people all round the world envision justice differently, if it is expressed differently from culture to culture?

And WBC Satanic? You're funny. They are good Christians. I mean true Christians. Would burn heretics at the stake if they only had a chance.

#34

Anna Sep 10 '19

Yes, I'm sure I do think. Satanism is and has always been the reaction to Christianity. Satan is a character from which book? Christianity is not only a religion but a specific ethos, including a specific morality system. You don't see how the Western world is influenced by Christian system of values? Perhaps less than in the past but still that morality is prevailing.

Words have not only more than one meaning but their meaning depends on the cultural context. Ours allows for at least several interpretations of such words like Satan, Satan-ism, Satan-ic etc because the core Satan archetype has quite a rich history. If one is not aware of it, then that person is ignorant, stupid even. Now, whether it makes sense to educate the stupid about their own cultural heritage and explain shit to them and what potential risks it entails is a totally different cup of coffee, deserving a separate thread because the OP didn't complain (or did I miss something?) about being misunderstood by uneducated, semi-literate idiots.

#35

Anna Sep 10 '19

If the Western society wasn't largely influenced by Christianity, then the term Satanism would be quite meaningless - the very thing you're arguing against. And nobody in their right mind would assume that some worship the devil, I mean what for?

The definition is nothing more and nothing less than the anti-Christian ethos, embracing sin, doing the devil's work. All the rest is an interpretation; devil worship, LaVey's philosophy, embracing the shadow, rebelling against the status quo are all part of and fit the definition.

Besides, if you want to believe Satanism means devil worship, go on. I guess we are going to argue about this shit till the day of fucking Rapture.

The Forum post is edited by Anna Sep 10 '19

#36

MichaelWoond Sep 10 '19

Quote from Anna
Satanism is and has always been the reaction to Christianity.

No, Satanism did not existed before 20 century. It was a myth in the middle ages describing an evil conspiracy who worshipped the devil and no such cult ever existed.

The definition of Satanism is the modern religion that began with Anton LaVey's creation of The Church of Satan and has developed into many different branches because Satan opens up to different interprations and expressions.

#37

Anna Sep 10 '19

@Michael

Actually, the word dates back to the 16th century. It was used for describing rival Christian groups. Those were accused of doing Satan's work, that is spreading heresy. The concept of devil worship is even older and dates back to the medieval witch hunts. The same goes for the black mass. Know something about the poisons affair in France? Do you really think LaVey pulled it out of his ass?

#38

MichaelWoond Sep 10 '19

Quote from Anna
@Michael
Actually, the word dates back to the 16th century. It was used for describing rival Christian groups. Those were accused of doing Satan's work, that is spreading heresy. The concept of devil worship is even older and dates back to the medieval witch hunts. The same goes for the black mass. Know something about the poisons affair in France? Do you really think LaVey pulled it out of his ass?

Yes Satanism was in the myth defined as the evil conspiracy who worshipped the devil and that myth was the cause behind the accusation of heretics and pagans. However, none of these were practicing Satanists. Have you ever read the satanic bible?

The Forum post is edited by MichaelWoond Sep 10 '19

#39

Member

Discordia Sep 10 '19

Don't be silly Plasmo, there are no real devil worshipers. Nobody ever actually does anything interesting. There are no men in red woolen shirts behind some narrow door getting incredible kicks from things you'll never know. Hush now and go back to sleep.

The Forum post is edited by Discordia Sep 10 '19

#40

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