Severity | Forum

My experience with religious people is that they are into cognitive dissonance because it's a defense mechanism to ensure the identity. You can therefore not argue them away from their religion. 

Religion establish and maintains a culture that is importance for the individual to survive. You may consider yourself a misanthrope but fact is that you live in a culture that has been essential for your survival. You won't survive to long in the jungle alone. Homo sapiens survived through tribalism that build culture.

Satanists are not special people. They just have a trait that makes them their own gods and therefore also more selective when it comes to love and friendships.

Tribalism is separated from community in the way that a tribe cooperates to empower the individual. 

Also you throw the word "tribe" left and right. Thanks to people like you the word became pretty meaningless. But since you use it so often, please explain how you define the word "tribe" and also how a typical Satanic tribe should look like according to your imaginings.

The nullifidian impulse, once activated, quickly drives out any concepts of the self that have no basis beyond the faith impulse or the tenets of religious belief, and ultimately leaves nothing remaining but the physical body. Understanding (and living) life from a carnal starting point is the inescapable imperative arising out of two commitments, the nullifidian and the egoistic.

The best and clearest example of a carnal philosopher was Sigmund Freud. His work was an ongoing project of striving to understand - and through understanding, to help people successfully live - life from a carnal starting point. This article discusses a key aspect of Freud's system in a manner illustrative of my point: Freud's 5 Stages of Psychosexual Development

In LaVey's writings, carnality is often waved around like a banner, but you'll actually find very little of the kinds of emphases you'd expect from someone for whom carnality was front and center, and the reason for this is precisely this: Carnality really wasn't front and center for LaVey. It was simply the inescapable consequence of his nullifidian and egoistic commitments, and he knew it, so he waved the banner around.

Search LaVey's writings for, say, contemplations of the deliciousness of food, or the ecstasy of sex, or the importance of physical fitness, or the joy of athleticism, or even the horrors of disease or disfigurement. They're not there. And the reason they're not there is because they weren't front and center in LaVey's mind.

They are, however, front and center in mine, because when I probe the intersection of two impulses, the nullifidian and the egoistic, I find myself squarely in the territory of carnality. In the absence of heaven and the towering presence of self, it is, frankly, stupid not to manage one's life from a carnal starting point. And being stupid causes friction with another impulse: the misanthropic.

Do you include yourself in that? If you do - do you consider the defense mechanism to be a vice or a virtue?

This is not just my opinion. You call yourself a doubter, yet you treat LaVey's words as a gospel. What is written in TSB should be taken together with the context, the background. And that background is all the circumstances that accompanied the codification of Satanism, forming the CoS and publishing TSB. Hint: the people who helped LaVey to put Satanic "religion" together were, among his friends, publicity agents, public relations agents, columnists and celebrities. Why do you think that was the case?

This is why I suggested reading Aquino's "Church of Satan" because, while it should also be taken with a grain of salt, it offers a glimpse at "the man behind the curtain." You saw only the wizard and stopped there.

Sure, LaVey called Satanism "religion" but he also called catism and dogism religions. Do you think these too are religions? Also your claim that the spirituality is part of Satanism is mistaken. It's clearly stated that only the carnal exists. LaVey's only reason for incorporating rituals was the human need for enchantment and he, as a showman and celebrity, was good at playing a wizard.

You edited the shit about tribes at least three times because you don't really know what the tribe is. You posted a link to the CoS ritual but the CoS is not a tribe. Neither is the circle of friends practicing rituals a tribe. A tribe is a more cohesive structure bound by common ancestry, customs and tradition. The legal system is replaced by oral code of honor, a special etiquette of conduct regulated to the tiniest detail and bonds of kinship and mutual loyalty, which facilitate the subordination of an individual to the collective. Tribes and clans are the feature of collectivist societies. This is why you don't see them in the Western culture, which is highly individualistic. 

That being said, it's not entirely impossible to envision a Satanic tribe and even establish one. But that would require you to drink a different kind of kool aid than the one you're now drinking. Not that it would make you any less mindfucked. You could try another state of bamboozlement though.

Meanwhile, I suggest you start checking the words in a dictionary instead of using them pointlessly.

This concept (animality) was indeed front and center in LaVey's mind. He didn't use the word, but the concept was an underlying assumption of very much of what he wrote. We can look at the Nine Satanic Statements to get a good sense of what I mean.

First, here's the statement that brings carnality into the mix, though the word itself isn't used:

2. Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams!

I say animality logically follows from carnality because when we think of our bodies, we naturally question what sorts of bodies they are, and the answer is, they're simian bodies, mammalian bodies, vertebrate bodies, animal bodies. Animality can't be separated from carnality, because our bodies can't be separated from their animalistic genesis. The Delphic command, "Know yourself," implies out of logical necessity, "Know yourself as an animal." This self-awareness is a large part of what the next statement is getting at.

3. Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead of hypocritical self-deceit!

A good book that helps us grapple with what it means to be an animal is The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris.

The following statements all derive from the conviction that it is natural, healthy, sensible, and advantageous to acknowledge, nourish, and express our animality.

4. Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates!

In nature, animals help one another symbiotically. There's a reciprocity to it. They don't waste their loving kindness on ingrates.

5. Satan represents vengeance instead of turning the other cheek!

Take a swing at a tiger and you won't see a whole lot of turning the other cheek.

6. Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires!

When an animal identifies a parasite and is able to get at it with claws or fangs. the parasite is dealt with swiftly and with finality.

And of course there's the statement that explicitly talks about our animality.

7. Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all-fours, who, because of his “divine spiritual and intellectual development,” has become the most vicious animal of all!

Man the superbeast is very much the Nietzschean ideal, and this  includes our colossal escalation of the science and art of destruction and death. Give a chimpanzee a bazooka and he will fire it, and when he sees what he's wrought, he will fire it as many more times as you allow him to. Nothing is more simian than war.

Finally there's this.

8. Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

Desmond Morris's book, cited above, talks about such things as the simian proclivity toward such so-called "sins" as greed, envy, and malice. Modern researchers have lately been especially interested in simian envy.

The foregoing gives the Satanist much to think about.

Seriously, Alice in Hell, keep chasing the rabbit. Words have their meanings. You can argue all day long that flamingos are crocodiles but using words in such a way that they become meaningless brings any discussion down to the level of absurdity.

The word "religion" has a meaning. Religion indeed creates the barrier but that is between the worldly/carnal and spiritual, between the sacred and profane. Satanism erases the sacred and spiritual, leaving only the profane, the worldly, the carnal. More, it elevates the worldly and profane to the level reserved for the divine. In that it is anti-religion, it's an antithesis of religion.

Also the word "tribe" has a meaning. The CoS is an organization but it's not a tribe because there is no bond of kinship and loyalty between its members. If you want to join the CoS, you send Gilmore cash, fill in the application form and you get your membership card. That's it. You owe nothing to other members, usually you don't even know them, and they owe nothing to you.

"Satanists have a need for that experience"

No, YOU have a need for that experience because you're a theist. You love grovelling before your master just like all other religionists do. Only you chose Satan for your master. Hence your obsession with the ritual chamber because there you can be yourself. You don't have to pretend to be a "doubter." Who you aren't by the way because you believe all the nonsense that has been fed to the gullible public. It's a convenient excuse for you to indulge in your superstitions while posing as a sceptic. No no, I don't believe in demons and devils because I'm a doubter but I intellectually decompress myself and then I'm a believer. Laughable.

"You focus to much on semantics instead of context. When will you begin to read TSB?"

Weak sauce.

I need intellectual decompression BECAUSE I'm a doubter. If I was a believer I would have no need for it. This is why the ritual chamber is important for Satanists to perform these psychodramas.

I really don’t think Tom is a theist. LaVey was not a theist either. I’ll repeat that – LaVey was not a theist either. People seem to get hung up on this Atheist/theist dichotomy I think.

Just another couple of quotes - these come from Burton Wolfe, who wrote a Church of Satan/LaVey approved introduction to TSB before Michael Aquino and Peter Gilmore later did. Wolfe was also a member of the Priesthood of Mendes and held at least the third degree in the Church.

The below comes from TSB, which Zach made available in the S.I.N library here. It reads:

‘In LaVey's view, the Devil was not that, but rather a dark, hidden force in nature responsible for the workings of earthly affairs, a force for which neither science nor religion had any explanation. LaVey's Satan is "the spirit of progress, the inspirer of all great movements that contribute to the development of civilization and the advancement of mankind. He is the spirit of revolt that leads to freedom, the embodiment of all heresies that liberate.’" Wolfe TSB Introduction, Page 7.

Wolfe goes on and states:

‘"For one thing," LaVey explained himself, "calling it a church enabled me to follow the magic formula of one part outrage to nine parts social respectability that is needed for success. But the main purpose was to gather a group of like-minded individuals together for the use of their combined energies in calling up the dark force in nature that is called Satan."’ Wolfe TSB Introduction, Page 7.

I don’t know what else to say here. I mean I have quoted LaVey and I have quoted someone else, who provided an approved introduction to the book, which has come to be regarded as the core work of LaVey’s brand of Satanism. There’s no point arguing – it’s there in black and white.

And if you are going to try to state that LaVey was a con artist (and somehow undermine his work that way) by suggesting that he is merely being dishonest and not stating what he truly thinks, then why accept anything he ever said and did at all?

But why would anyone just jump to the conclusion that this dark force in nature was attached, or an outcome, or a property of a conscious and intelligent subject. Does LaVey say this? Well no, he doesn’t. He is not a theist. He is an unusual type of occultist, who is exploring some hidden side of nature. He is doing sincere magic by accessing and directing this dark force.

I personally think this dark force of nature implies an unconscious subject, but that is my own property, and not necessarily LaVey’s view at all. I think this dark force of nature is will to power as an ontology - again that is my position and not necessarily LaVey's.

Tom: 'I'm not a theist but I don't consider myself an atheist either. I'm a doubter. I really don't know if the invoked devils and demons in satanic rituals are actual entities or just archetypes. I think it's the point with Greater Magic that you acknowledge that it's an realm of unknown but as a doubter you need to decompress the intellect...'

Yes, I think it makes the practice of ritual magic a far more interesting and valuable thing to do, if you are trying to access, form and use this occult quality, which LaVey is referring to.

If people just regard ritual magic as catharsis, then good luck to them, but I think there is far more going on and the process and end result can be far more liberating and conducive to understanding.

The cool thing for me – if you start out with a clear view of Satan, then you can develop a whole picture of human beings and the nature of human society, as a result. The old Hermetic tradition of the correspondence between the macro and the micro really is applicable here. Everything comes into focus when you start with Satan.

I will explain. My point is not that LaVey was dishonest and that he wrote something else than he really thought (I'm talking of course for myself and not Wolfie) but rather that some people have been misled by and that they got lost in all the details regarding the ceremonial part of Satanism. It's like by focusing their minds on all those details, they missed the crux of the matter, the main point of those rituals.

And the main point of ritualizing was not really exploring the adversarial force called Satan but BECOMING Satan, that is by engaging in those rituals, which are heretical, blasphemous and antinomian you become the very force of adversity, the agent of heresy. A ritual is one of the tools to subvert the dominant morality, first in your mind and then in the outside world.

Those who come and claim that they need a ritual to explore that other magical realm because they don't know whether all those devils and demons LaVey mentioned exist totally miss the point. It's not actually all that different from Christians saying ten Hail Marys to communicate with the divine. Even if one is a doubter... Dear God, if you exist, please listen to my prayers... No need for Satan here.

First, as I had noted previously, I've dispensed with the word "atheist" because it constantly summons the kinds of rebuttals we've seen on this very thread as well as elsewhere. What has been at stake for me in these discussions was not whether LaVey was a theist but whether he subscribed to faith or religious belief, which I myself don't subscribe to, making me nullifidian. The contents of the faith or religious belief are not the crux of the matter. Any faith or religious belief, in anything at all, I reject.

Second, when LaVey called Satan "the dark force in nature," it's important to put that in context. For LaVey, and for me as well, nature includes humans. It includes you and me. It includes the ritualist. If I, or LaVey, say such a thing as, "I'm invoking the dark force in nature," what this most importantly means is, "I'm invoking the dark force in myself."

I can agree with that phrasing. Satan is the dark force in myself. More to the point, I think this phrasing is what LaVey most crucially meant. Sure, we can follow Nietzsche and say that the dark force in ourselves is the same dark force in trees and caterpillars and even raindrops, and yes, this would satisfy the religious impulse for many, giving LaVey his nine parts in ten, his "respectability," but it isn't crucial. I simply don't care about the dark force in trees and caterpillars and raindrops. I don't need to imagine my will reaching out to all the forests and seas and deserts and lakes of the world, linking up with all that lives in them. I care about the dark force in myself. What I feel the need to link together are the dark force and the ego within myself. When I accomplish this, I BECOME SATAN, as Anna so eloquently explained. There's no faith or religious belief in this. What there is, is psychology, and philosophy, and poetry, the three pillars of personal power, and that's what I perceive LaVey to be primarily focused on, even though, if pressed, he might have waxed eloquent about the Demon Caterpillars of Carpathia.

Quote from Anna  but rather that some people have been misled by and that they got lost in all the details regarding the ceremonial part of Satanism. It's like by focusing their minds on all those details, they missed the crux of the matter, the main point of those rituals.

Ummm, okay – I appreciate the responses. I guess I must agree to disagree with you on this occasion. I’ll make one last post in this thread and then leave it for others to comment on.

I’m just going to re-quote this part of the Wolfe intro: ‘In LaVey's view, the Devil was not that, but rather a dark, hidden force in nature responsible for the workings of earthly affairs, a force for which neither science nor religion had any explanation.’

The dark hidden force in nature is not explicitly and literally referred to as the dark hidden force in human nature – rather, the dark hidden force in nature is the dark hidden force IN nature. That’s what is actually said here.

 It is true that human beings occupy a place in nature and hence can be said to possess a hidden occult side, or a dark hidden force in human nature. I personally think the dark hidden force in human nature was studied by the psychoanalytic tradition, and possibly by others, and could be named the unconscious or the ID. I think Leviathan sort of symbolizes or signifies it.

Again, what is referred to explicitly and literally in the writings themselves is a dark hidden force IN nature i.e., nature as a totality, nature as being, or given my philosophical attitude, nature as becoming.

But, also, please note the writings go onto state that this dark hidden force IN nature is RESPONSIBLE for the workings OF earthly affairs. That is a powerful claim. There is no way that the dark hidden force in an individual human being can be responsible for the workings of earthly affairs, in their totality. What is implied here is a dark hidden force in nature, which is responsible for the workings of earthly affairs, in their totality.

I can control some of the factors, which impact upon my day to day existence, but there is no way I can be responsible for the workings of earthly affairs. There is much I cannot control.          

It is my contention that just as this hidden dark force in human nature can be described as the unconscious or the ID of the human being, that further this dark hidden force in nature can be described as the unconscious or ID of becoming. I really do see the relevance of the hermetic tradition of correspondences here. I am an occultist and not a scientist.

It is my belief that this unconscious force in nature as becoming is will to power. Making that sort of claim goes beyond the sorts of interpretations, which science and religion might resort to.