Revenge | Forum

Hoodlum88
Hoodlum88 Aug 7 '21
I like how you say one thing, realise what you said, and revise it to keep ground in your mind.  Luckily I quoted you to a word pad before you could alter the post.



Quote from Tom Riddle
The Satanist performs the psychodrama to remove his guilt for not doing something to avenge himself. Being a Satanist is a personality trait and not anyone have that trait just like not anyone is introverted. Therefore there is no reason to try to explain the mechanism of Greater Magic because the Satanist uses it if he have a need for it in situations..

That's just mental somersaults, isn't It?

If it's incantations for magical purpose, and there's a real mechanism of greater magic, then you're theistic, aren't you? I'm zonked trying to keep this cohesive between temporary and present. How is it a temporary belief if there's a mechanism of greater magic playing a centre role in a ritualistic practise?  It's coming off very contradictory. Do you really believe in powers of darkness or pretend to? Is there something tangible to the mechanism of greater magic? 

The Forum post is edited by Hoodlum88 Aug 7 '21
Wolfie
Wolfie Aug 7 '21
Hoodlum88, I don't think you'll get anywhere with Tom. I say that after watching some other people (including me) try to get somewhere with him.


Here's how I interpret him:

1. He doubts the supernatural existence of Satan and the supernatural power of ritual.

2. He hopes the supernatural existence of Satan and the supernatural power of ritual are real.

3. He's been told the supernatural power of ritual is unleashed only if he believes.

4. He's been told that if he does ritual a certain way, he'll achieve "intellectual decompression" which means the suppression of doubt.

5. He tries to achieve the suppression of doubt so that hopefully his ritual will work.

6. He will never outright say there's no such thing as supernatural existence or supernatural power, because he hopes otherwise, and because he's trying to suppress doubt.

7. He has noticed that, regardless whether the rituals work, he feels better after doing them.


Despite the fact that I find a lot of that pretty ludicrous, I can understand it and I could even work with it if I were trying to partner with him on something, except for this crucial point: He does ritual in lieu of taking action in the real world. That, I can't get past. Sure, do ritual, but not as an alternative to real world ACTION.



Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 7 '21
Quote from Hoodlum88 IIf it's incantations for magical purpose, and there's a real mechanism of greater magic, then you're theistic, aren't you? 


Magic is not an entity like a god. Some Satanists do accept that Greater Magic can produce real magical results while others don't share that opinion but even if we assumed that the Powers of Darkness are intelligences does not necessary make it theism. There are many possibilities what The Powers of Darkness can be. IMO it's a waste of time to analyze that because the reason why the ritual chamber is called the intellectual decompression chamber is because there is no analytic thinking there. Magic is an emotional experience and can therefore not be explained with logic.



Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 7 '21
Quote from Wolfie Hoodlum88, I don't think you'll get anywhere with Tom. I say that after watching some other people (including me) try to get somewhere with him.

What many people in this forum don't get is that in Satanism there is a logical realm and an emotional realm. Magic, spirits, forces etc are in the emotional realm and that realm takes place in the ritual chamber. Intellectual decompression means that you not only suspend your disbelief but any possibility for analytic thinking which also includes your own self-awareness. Magic, spirits and devils etc are all an emotional experience. Even if we can prove they don't exists the rules are different in that realm. Witchcraft, demonic invocation and devil 
worship etc are all psychodramas and they only work psychologically if the participants don't know they are psychodramas.
MatthewJ1
MatthewJ1 Aug 7 '21

Warning: long ass post - I thought this might be helpful. I continue to assume that Tom’s Satanism and his view of magical ritual are still underpinned by ‘The Satanic Bible’ by Anton LaVey.

 

Just to address the question of method acting and ritual performance. If I decide to complete a Destruction Ritual, then I am doing it because I am filled with anger and hatred for someone, and I have decided that creating a ritual to destroy my enemy is warranted.

 

I don’t actually have to psyche myself up, or pretend I am an actor getting ready to play a part. The destruction ritual takes place, as a direct result, of my already existing anger and hatred. I’m not playing a part. I am angry to start with, so I do a destruction ritual.

 

This is the same approach, whether I’m performing a lust ritual or a compassion ritual, or any other type of operative ritual, where I am seeking a certain outcome. Those feelings are already there. The ritual is just designed to express those genuine, pre-existing feelings, in the most meaningful form possible.

 

Just in regards to theism and its place in satanic ritual, as per LaVey’s Satanic Bible. I have included a quote from the approved introduction to TSB, written by Wolfe.  

 

‘The intent of some of these secret orders was to blaspheme, lampoon the Christian

church, and address themselves to the Devil as an anthropomorphic deity that represented the

reverse of God. In LaVey's view, the Devil was not that, but rather a dark, hidden force in nature

responsible for the workings of earthly affairs, a force for which neither science nor religion had

any explanation.’

 

There is a lot of content in this quote, but please note this part of the quote: ‘…a force for which neither science NOR RELIGION had any explanation.’  

 

Religion has no explanation for this force in nature, which is the devil. That is an important point.

 

In my view, it is the habit of religion, particularly the Judeo-Christian tradition, to believe that prayer and magical ritual is an appeal to a higher conscious power i.e., a deity, such as God, or Satan, or angels, or demons, etc., for assistance or for the granting of wishes.

 

But TSB states that the devil is not an anthropomorphic deity. It is something else, but religion cannot account for it, religion cannot describe it.

 

But if that is the case and religion (and science) cannot describe it or properly account for it, then what is it? And moreover, why would you ever employ ritual language and processes, which suggests that the devil is an anthropomorphic deity?  

 

The answer, as I read TSB: we are dealing with a force in nature, and that further, it is dark and hidden i.e., it is an occult force. Either it is virtually indescribable i.e., it is mystical in nature, or you can employ language to describe it and influence it in some way i.e., it is esoteric. I think it is a bit of both.

 

The sorts of language, or aesthetics, or forms of representation used to frame the ritual, are all we human beings have, as far as using a set of tools to access and direct this occult force. It is what we have come up with historically, to either name and influence this devil, as an anthropomorphic deity, or as an occult force in nature.

 

You have to use what you think is the most appropriate tools for communing with this force and using or directing it. There is always a problem with the connection between the semiotic sign and the referent when you are doing magic – it is a big problem of esotericism. But if you subscribe to LaVey’s view then surely the form of representation and terminology used must account for the inadequacy of traditional religious terminology and aesthetics in naming and describing and manipulating this force. I think LaVey acknowledged this, or that is the way it seems to me, when you study the history of his rituals and aesthetics.    

 

Anyway, how do you tell if the ritual has worked and you have connected with this dark force and used it well? You have to perform the ritual and judge it pragmatically – what are its effects, if any? Did you achieve the outcome? Did it not work?

Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 7 '21

Quote from MatthewJ1

I continue to assume that Tom’s Satanism and his view of magical ritual are still underpinned by ‘The Satanic Bible’ by Anton LaVey.

 


The concept of the intellectual decompression chamber is not LaVey's invention. It was experimented a lot in his period of time. When he comes with his theories about satanic magic he contradicts his own premise that there is no analytic thinking in the ritual chamber. Magic is not meant to be explained because it's an emotional experience. 


The reason why I reject the concept of "forms of Satanism" or "branches of Satanism" is because there is no analytic thinking in the ritual chamber which makes your personal beliefs irrelevant when participating in ceremony for the satanic holiday...

The Forum post is edited by Tom Riddle Aug 7 '21
MatthewJ1
MatthewJ1 Aug 7 '21

Yes, I understand this notion of the “intellectual de-compression” and the emotional character of ritualizing, as per the simple magical procedures in LaVey’s TSB. I actually think that type of ritualizing is rather mundane and superficial. It’s not a very deep esoteric process, nor is it conducive to uncovering and contemplating any underlying mystical object. I find a ritual like Die Elektrischen Vorspiele more interesting and metaphysically significant than a simple lust ritual. Basically, those simple rituals are designed to satisfy the rather mundane wishes of an individual. I think it is far more satisfying and effective to take action in the real world and succeed on that level, if you are thinking of doing a lust ritual, or a destruction ritual, or a compassion ritual.   

 

I want more. Magic shouldn’t be just about going into some space, getting intellectually de-compressed, and then pouring out your emotions, and then leaving that space once you have finished exhausting your emotional energy.

 

I think magic is a way of disclosing and plugging into an underlying occult reality. I think a magician has to carefully make decisions, in a calm and rational way, before they actually go into any ritual chamber – choices around litany, symbolism and imagery, material tools, costume any other relevant factors. Those choices have to be philosophically framed by some view of reality beforehand – both occult and manifest. You should be very particular when you’re trying to figure out what language or meaningful elements you decide to include/exclude.

 

But further, a magician should do the ritual in an entirely calm way with an expectation that they are trying unlock something and gain some deeper level of comprehension regarding reality and the way reality underlies and regulates our world of phenomenal appearances. In my view, emotion should play no part in the process, though mystical contemplation may lead to an emotional response – that has happened before in my case. If you can access something underlying and grasp it; if you can then form it and impress it upon sensuous phenomena then you’ve done pretty well.

 

I must also state, that I find these satanic holidays to be rather mundane and redundant. I guess they were chosen because they were significant in past literature or TSB or whatever. I’m not sure why I would ever want to celebrate a satanic holiday.

 

 

Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 7 '21
If you want to study the occult then LaVey is not recommended. He is not so competent magician. He is respected for creating The Church of Satan that brought Satanism into public but Satanism is not an occult practice itself. It's a religion. If the Satanist wants to study the occult he needs to go to actual occult sources. Occult study is more than just intellectual decompression and psychodrama. 


When it comes to the 3 types of Greater Magic then I discredit them all because they are based on outdated psychology such as Freud and Jung. While TDR is also outdated it still gives the Satanist a feeling that he has done something to avenge himself which alone can satisfies the ego.

The Forum post is edited by Tom Riddle Aug 8 '21
Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 7 '21
Quote from MatthewJ1

 I’m not sure why I would ever want to celebrate a satanic holiday.


The function of ceremony and holiday is to preserve a group, so it has only relevance if you have friends or acquaintances who are Satanists. I don't really see Halloween so relevant to Satanism. There is only one satanic holiday and it's Walpurgis Night as it marks the birthday of CoS that brought Satanism into public. 
The Forum post is edited by Tom Riddle Aug 7 '21
Cornelius Coburn
Cornelius Coburn Aug 8 '21

Quote from Tom Riddle
The ritual chamber with it's temporary theism is where the madness begin but it's ironically still a controlled madness as the high priest lead the group 
through steps. 

So in other words, there is method to the madness.
Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 8 '21
Quote from Cornelius Coburn 
So in other words, there is method to the madness.

Satanic ritual is guided madness.
Wolfie
Wolfie Aug 8 '21
Mindless submission to a leader's commands runs contrary to what I think of as Satanic.


Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 8 '21
Quote from Wolfie Mindless submission to a leader's commands runs contrary to what I think of as Satanic.



Yes but it's not something we are talking about here either...
Anna
Anna Aug 8 '21
@Tom Riddle,

Let's settle one thing. You talk a lot about the destruction ritual. Have you ever performed it? If so, was the direct revenge impossible? Do you believe the ritual was successful?

Anna
Anna Aug 8 '21

Quote from Wolfie 

Despite the fact that I find a lot of that pretty ludicrous, I can understand it and I could even work with it if I were trying to partner with him on something, except for this crucial point: He does ritual in lieu of taking action in the real world. That, I can't get past. Sure, do ritual, but not as an alternative to real world ACTION.




And what if the revenge is impossible for some reason? Like you cannot get the person who fucked with you. Then what? Do you just move on, decide to vent your anger in the ritual or what?

Hoodlum88
Hoodlum88 Aug 8 '21

Quote from Wolfie Mindless submission to a leader's commands runs contrary to what I think of as Satanic.




Quote from Tom Riddle
Quote from Wolfie Mindless submission to a leader's commands runs contrary to what I think of as Satanic.



Yes but it's not something we are talking about here either...

Ha! Brilliant. Is this a comedy routine with this guy? 

Hoodlum88
Hoodlum88 Aug 8 '21

The comment quoted seems to have vanished. 

Quote from Tom Riddle
I have not personally because I was always afraid of if my curse could backfire resulting in my own demise also. I talk about it because I believe that turning the other cheek is destructive for the Satanist. I feel guilt if I don't do something to avenge myself, so instead of ritual I looked at other opportunities that could lead to my foe's demise without breaking the laws.
What's the fun in that? You're not coming off particularly devilish. That sounds like fear of superstition and authority.  Curses backfiring? Mindful adherance to legal code? Satan forbid you should chance your arm a bit.  

The Forum post is edited by Hoodlum88 Aug 8 '21
Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 8 '21
Quote from Anna @Tom Riddle,

Let's settle one thing. You talk a lot about the destruction ritual. Have you ever performed it? If so, was the direct revenge impossible? Do you believe the ritual was successful?


I once performed a small ritual to curse an enemy who wronged me but it was before I realized I was a Satanist. I used a candle and a paper drawing my enemy where I stabbed it many times consumed by my rage. I got very drained but ended to sleep well during the nigh. The day after I never though about it, so I do feel it was a success as I eliminated my enemy from my consciousness and subconsciousness.
Tom Riddle
Tom Riddle Aug 8 '21
Quote from Hoodlum88

What's the fun in that? You're not coming off particularly devilish. That sounds like fear of superstition and authority.  Curses backfiring? Mindful adherance to legal code? Satan forbid you should chance your arm a bit.  

If you shot with a gun it can also backfire if you hit something that deflect the 
projectile. Is that superstition? An other backfire some ritualistic Satanists have experienced is guilt if the curse ended up killing the person which was not the intention. That part is very rooted in psychology. 

Anna
Anna Aug 8 '21

Quote from Tom Riddle
I once performed a small ritual to curse an enemy who wronged me but it was before I realized I was a Satanist. I used a candle and a paper drawing my enemy where I stabbed it many times consumed by my rage. I got very drained but ended to sleep well during the nigh. The day after I never though about it, so I do feel it was a success as I eliminated my enemy from my consciousness and subconsciousness.

How does that differ from punching a pillow a few times? Since you have never conducted a destruction ritual proper, then how do you know that they work? Or that the intellectual decompression works?

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